The Anonymous Widower

Thoughts On Class 807 Trains And High Speed Two’s Classic-Compatible Trains

Avanti West Coast’s New Class 807 Trains

Avanti West Coast have ordered a small fleet of Class 807 trains.

This article on Railnews, gives this short description.

There will be more seats, because a seven-car train will have 453 and five-car sets will have 301. First said the seven-car version will have about the same number of seats as a nine-car Pendolino, because each IET vehicle is longer, at 26m.

Adding standard details of other Hitachi trains in the family, the following seems to be known.

  • They are seven-car trains.
  • The cars are the standard twenty-six metres, so a seven-car train will be 182 metres.
  • Ten trains have been ordered.
  • I suspect that like all the other trains in the family, they will be 125 mph trains, that are capable of 140 mph, when the signalling and track allows.
  • They are pencilled in for services between London Euston and Birmingham New Street, Blackpool North and Liverpool Lime Street stations
  • They will not have batteries or diesel engines for emergency or hotel power. Could this mean, that the trains have been designed for high performance, by removing excess weight?
  • The trains don’t have a tilting capability. Does this save weight and increase acceleration?
  • The trains have 453 seats, as opposed to the nine-car Class 390 trains, which have 469 seats.

Could these trains be designed, to be able to better the Class 390 train schedules on the West Coast Main Line?

  • They have no tilting capability.
  • They can only work on electric power, like the Class 390 trains.
  • They could have very fast acceleration, due to the weight loss.
  • They only reduce capacity by 3.5 %, when compared to a nine-car Class 390 train.

In Will Avanti West Coast’s New Trains Be Able To Achieve London Euston and Liverpool Lime Street In Two Hours?, this was my conclusion.

I believe the following will be possible.

    • A two hour service between London Euston and Liverpool Lime Street will be possible with Avanti West Coast’s new Class 807 trains.
    • The current Class 390 trains could go a bit faster.
    • I estimate that a Class 807 train could save as much as two-and-a-half-minutes at each stop.
    • Blackpool North and London times will be comfortably under three hours.
    • Coventry and London times will be comfortably under an hour.

The performance of these Class 807 trains will improve the West Coast Main Line.

What will London in two hours, do for Liverpool?

Class 807 Trains With Different Car Lengths

It is possible to create a table showing car length, train length and capacity for Class 807 trains

  • 26 metres – 182 metres – 453 seats
  • 26.5 metres – 185.5 metres – 462 seats
  • 27 metres – 189 metres – 470 seats
  • 27.5 metres – 192.5 metres – 479 seats
  • 28 metres – 196 metres – 488 seats
  • 28.5 metres – 199.5 metres – 497 seats

It seems that by lengthening all cars by half a metre, just adds nine seats.

Does this point to the fact, that twenty-six metres was a carefully-chosen optimal car length?

Class 807 Trains With Different Numbers Of Cars

A similar table can also be created for different numbers of twenty-six metre cars.

  • 7 cars – 182 metres – 453 seats
  • 8 cars – 208 metres – 518 seats
  • 9 cars – 234 metres – 582 seats
  • 10 cars – 260 metres – 647 seats

Note that as an eleven-car Class 390 train is 265.3 metres, a ten-car Class 807 train will fit all platforms, currently used by eleven-car Class 390 trains.

Replacement Of Eleven-Car Class 390 Trains With Class 807 Trains

The eleven-car Class 390 trains are 265.3 metres long and seat 589 passengers.

Looking at the two tables, nine-car Class 807 trains would be almost direct replacements for an eleven-car Class 390 trains.

  • The performance of the Class 807 trains would be as good if not better.
  • The passenger capacity of both trains would be similar, with just seven seats less in the new trains.
  • The Class 807 trains would also be shorter and could fit any platform currently served by an eleven-car Class 390 train.

It should also be noted, that the Class 807 trains would have to run as singles, as platforms on the West Coast Main Line can’t handle a four hundred metre train.

I believe it is highly likely that the classic-compatible trains for High Speed Two and the trains that replace the Class 390 trains will be the same and based on the Class 807 trains, that are now being assembled at Hitachi’s factory at Newton Aycliffe.

Could A Class 807 Train Be Stretched To Become A High Speed Two Classic-Compatible Train?

The Classic-Compatible trains are described in this section in Wikipedia, by this sentence.

The classic-compatible trains, capable of high speed but built to a British loading gauge, permitting them to leave the high speed track to join conventional routes such as the West Coast Main Line, Midland Main Line and East Coast Main Line. Such trains would allow running of HS2 services to the north of England and Scotland, although these non-tilting trains would run slower than existing tilting trains on conventional track. HS2 Ltd has stated that, because these trains must be specifically designed for the British network and cannot be bought “off-the-shelf”, these conventional trains were expected to be around 50% more expensive, costing around £40 million per train rather than £27 million for the captive stock.

The trains will have the same characteristics as the full-size trains.

  • Maximum speed of 225 mph.
  • Cruising speed of 205 mph on High Speed Two.
  • Length of 200 metres.
  • Ability to work in pairs.
  • A passenger capacity around 500-600 passengers.

A seven-car Class 807 train with twenty-six metre long cars would appear to be a partial match and tick all the boxes, except for the following.

  • The train’s maximum and cruising speeds are well below what is needed.
  • The train is only 182 metres long.
  • The train has a passenger capacity of 453.

Would a train with eight twenty-five metre long cars be a better fit?

  •  The train length would be 200 metres.
  • I doubt twenty-five metre cars would cause a problem!
  • I estimate the passenger capacity would be 498 seats.

The trains or members of the same family have already shown.

  • They can run on the East Coast, Great Western, Midland and West Coast Main Lines.
  • They can run on High Speed One.
  • They can split and join automatically.
  • When needed they can run on local lines.

If I was Avanti West Coast’s train-Czar, I would be seriously interested in a Classic-Compatible High Speed Two train, that was very similar to one, that I already had in service. Provided, of course it did what it promised in the specification.

In Wikipedia, the car lengths for Class 800, Class 801, Class 802, Class 805 and Class 810 trains are all given and have been reported in the media.

But the car lengths of the Class 803 and Class 807 trains are not given. Is it just an omission or is it deliberate?

Both these trains are designed for demanding routes.

  • The Class 803 trains are designed for London and Edinburgh in four hours.
  • I believe that the Class 807 trains are designed for London and Liverpool in two hours.

To get these demanding times, have Hitachi changed the car lengths?

  • Trains with shorter cars might accelerate better.
  • A redesigned interior might get more passengers in the shorter length.

I shall await the launch of both these lightweight speedsters with interest!


I wouldn’t be surprised that Hitachi’s offering for more trains on the West Coast Main Line and the Classic-Compatible trains for High Speed Two are very similar to the Class 807 trains.

  • The classic-compatible trains for High Speed Two could be eight-car trains with twenty-five metre cars.
  • The replacements for the eleven-car Class 390 trains could be nine-car trains with twenty-six metre cars.

Both would be based on the Class 807 train.







July 15, 2020 - Posted by | Transport | , , , ,


  1. […] In Thoughts On Class 807 Trains And High Speed Two’s Classic-Compatible Trains, I discussed the design of extra trains for High Speed Two and the West Coast Main Line. […]

    Pingback by Should High Speed Two’s Macclesfield And London Service Call At Birmingham Interchange? « The Anonymous Widower | July 15, 2020 | Reply

  2. The Hitachi trains match the pendo’s but do not tilt.

    Comment by John | July 16, 2020 | Reply

  3. I’m always a bit dubious about tilt. You add all this weight to go round corners faster and then the trains don’t accelerate as fast. You also make the inside of the train smaller and more cramped for passengers.

    Mark 3s and Class 800s are much better to ride in than a Pendolino.

    Comment by AnonW | July 16, 2020 | Reply

  4. Parts of the ECML & WCML are capable of higher than 140mph. Making these trains capable of faster speeds seems sensible. The trains should be making up time on straight stretches at every opportunity.

    What have Hitachi done to match Pendos without tilting?

    Comment by John | July 22, 2020 | Reply

  5. Tilting adds weight so slows acceleration. Hitachi have thrown out the diesels and batteries too! More acceleration!

    I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Hitachi’s new nose isn’t cosmetic and reduces drag. Reduce drag and less power is needed.

    Hitachi have now got a lot of data on these trains and I suspect they have identified ways to make them go faster.

    Comment by AnonW | July 22, 2020 | Reply

  6. […] Thoughts On Class 807 Trains And High Speed Two’s Classic-Compatible Trains, I discussed a design of Classic-Compatible High Speed Two train based on the recently-ordered […]

    Pingback by High Speed Two And Scotland « The Anonymous Widower | November 13, 2020 | Reply

Leave a Reply to High Speed Two And Scotland « The Anonymous Widower Cancel reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.