A London Overground Replacement For Southern’s East Croydon And Milton Keynes Service
In July 2017, I discussed this suggestion by Chris Gibb in Gibb Report – East Croydon – Milton Keynes Route Should Be Transferred To London Overground.
In an article, in the July 2019 Edition of Modern Railways, , which was entitled ‘710s’ Debut On Goblin, this was this last paragraph.
On the West London Line, TfL is curremtly working with the Department for Transport on options for the devolution of services originally suggested in Chris Gibb’s report on the Govia Thameslink Railway franchise, which could lead to ‘710s’ being deployed here.
It made me think, that further investigation was called for.
An Apology
I apologise, if you think I’m repeating myself.
What The Gibb Report Says
The Gibb Report, says this about the current service between East Croydon and Milton Keynes Central stations.
I believe there is an option to transfer the East Croydon – Milton Keynes operation to TfL and it’s London Overground concession in 2018.
TfL may decide to change the service, for example by not running it north of Watford Junction, or running it to an alternative southern destination other than East Croydon. They could also develop the combined West London line service to better match available capacity to demand.
They would have a number of crewing and rolling stock options, but should be able to operate the service more efficiently than GTR in the longer term, without the involvement of Selhurst.
Selhurst TMD is the depot in South London, where the current Class 377 trains are based.
A few of my thoughts.
The Trains
Using Class 710 trains as suggested in the Modern Railways article, would surely offer a suitable crewing and rolling stock option for the route, if they were based at the convenient Willesden TMD, where the fleet of up to twenty-five dual-voltage Class 710/2 trains are stabled.
The Northern Terminus
Chris Gibb suggested the service might not go past Watford Junction.
I think that could be difficult.
- The longitudinal seating of the Class 710 train, is probably not suitable for outer suburban services North of Watford.
- East Croydon to Watford Junction takes 69 minutes, which is not a good journey time to create an efficient service.
It would also appear to be tricky for a train to transfer between the West London Line and the Watford DC Line.
This map from carto.metro.free.fr shows the complicated track layout in the Willesden Junction area.
Note.
- The two Willesden Junction stations, labelled High Level and Low Level.
- The Watford DC Line, which is shown in black and orange, passing to the North of Willesden TMD. and through the Low Level station.
- The four tracks shown in black are the West Coast Main Line, with Watford to the West and Euston to the East.
- The North London Line to Richmond and the West London Line to Clapham Junction splitting at Wilesden High Level Junction.
The current service between East Croydon and Milton Keynes, is only one train per hour (tph) and uses a succession of flat junctions to take the slow lines to and from Watford.
This is not a good operational procedure and I suspect Network Rail and various train operators, would like to see it discontinued.
So if trains in a new London Overground version of the service, don’t go up the Watford DC Line or the West Coast Main Line, where do they turn back?
Note the siding to the East of the High Level platforms, which is labelled Willesden Junction Turnout.
This is regularly used to turnback London Overground services on the West London Line.
I feel that London Overground will be turning their replacement service in Willesden Junction High Level station.
Current train services at the station include.
- For passengers, who want to go further North, there is a good connection to the Watford DC Line for Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford Junction stations.
- The Watford DC Line can also take you to Euston.
- The Bakerloo Line between Stonebridge Park and Elephant & Castle via Central London.
- Frequent North London Line services between Stratford and Richmond.
The station has kiosks, coffee stalls, toilets and waiting rooms.
There are certainly worse places to change trains.
The Southern Terminus
Obviously, existing travellers on the route would like to see as few changes as possible.
East Croydon station must be a possibility for the Southern terminus, as it is the currently used.
But East Croydon is a busy station and perhaps it is not a convenient station for trains to wait in the platform.
On the other hand, West Croydon station offers some advantages.
- The station has a long bay platform, which might be long enough for nine or ten cars.
- There is a separate turnback siding.
- It has space to add another bay platform, but this may have been sold to a developer.
- It already has a four tph London Overground service to Highbury & Islington station.
- Using West Croydon avoids the crowded lines to the North of East Croydon station.
It is also managed by London Overground, so the landlord would be co-operative.
How Many Trains Would Be Needed For A West Croydon And Willesden Junction Service?
West Croydon station has two possible routes, that trains could take to Willesden Junction.
- Via Norwood Junction and Clapham Junction in 55 minutes.
- Via Selhust and Clapham Junction in 45 minutes.
These times mean that a two-hour round trip between West Croydon and Willesden Junction should be possible.
Trains required for various frequencies would be as follows.
- One tph – Two trains.
- Two tph = Four trains.
- Four tph – Eight trains.
They would need to be dual voltage Class 710/2 trains, as are now running on the Gospel Oak to Barking Line.
Compare the figures with those for the current East Croydon and Milton Keynes service, which needs four pairs of four-car trains for an hourly service.
What Would Be The Frequency?
I think one, two and four tph are all possibilities!
One tph
One tph would be a direct replacement for the current service. But is it enough?
Services at West Croydon could probably share the bay platform with the existing Highbury & Islington station service.
Two tph
Two tph could be a compromise frequency.
Two tph could probably still share the current bay platform with the Highbury & Islington service.
Four tph
Four tph would be a full Turn-Up-And-Go service,
- It would probably be London Overground’s preference.
- It would give a very passenger-friendly eight tph between Willesden Junction and Clapham Junction stations.
- The two services would call at opposite sides of Clapham Junction station.
- It would give a four tph link between Croydon and High Speed Two.
- Westfield wouldn’t mind all the extra shoppers at Shepherds Bush!
But there could be downsides.
- The service could need an extra bay platform at West Croydon.
- Would it be possible to turn four tph at Willesden Junction?
- Will the train paths be available through South London.
But four tph would probably would be London Overground’s preference.
It will be interesting to see the reasons, why Transport for London choose a particular frequency.
A Trip Between Imperial Wharf And East Croydon Stations
Today, I took a trip between Imperial Wharf and East Croydon stations at around 11:30.
- The train was two four-car Class 377 trains working as an eight-car train.
- After Clapham Junction it wasn’t very busy.
- I was in the last car, which was empty, except for myself.
I came to the conclusion, that an eight-car train was too much capacity for the Southern section of the journey.
I suspect that Transport for London have detailed passenger estimates for this route, so they should be able to determine the frequency and length of replacement trains required.
The Upgraded Norwood Junction Station
In Major Upgrade Planned For Norwood Junction Railway Station, I talked about a plan to upgrade Norwood Junction station.
The idea behind the upgrade is to improve connectivity and capacity in the crowded Croydon area.
If the West Croydon and Willesden Junction service, was routed via Norwood Junction station, the upgraded station would give easy access to both East and West Croydon stations.
Conclusion
I’ve always liked Chris Gibb’s suggestion of the transfer of the service between East Croydon and Milton Keynes stations to the London Overground and I can now start to see flesh on the bones!
At the present time and until better data is available, I think the replacement service should be as follows.
- The Northern terminus should be Willesden Junction.
- The Southern terminus should be West Croydon station, where there are good tram and train connections.
- The route would be via Shepherds Bush, Kensington Olympia, West Brompton, Imperial Wharf, Clapham Junction, Wandsworth Common, Balham, Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill, Crystal Palace and Norwood Junction.
- Going via Gipsy Hill, rather than the current route via Selhurst, would give access to the connectivity at Norwood Junction.
- The frequency should be four tph.
- Trains will be four- or five-car Class 710 trains.
The benefits would be as follows.
- The rail hubs of Clapham Junction, Norwood Junction, West Croydon and Willesden Junction would be connected together by a Turn-Up-And-Go service.
- The proposed four tph service would need eight Class 710 trains, whereas the current one tph service needs eight Class 377 trains. Would this be better value?
In the future with a connection to High Speed Two in the Old Oak Common area, the benefits would increase.
- There would be a simple interchange with High Speed Two.
- South London from Clapham to Croydon, would get a direct service to High Speed Two.
- There would also be a better connection to Heathrow Airport and other rail services through Old Oak Common.
I think that the connection to High Speed Two trumps everything else.
‘710s’ Debut On Goblin
The title of this post is the same as an article in the July 2019 Edition of Modern Railways.
The article is mainly about the introduction of the Class 710 trains on the Gospel Oak to Barking Line.
But the last sentence of the article is worth more investigation.
On the West London Line, TfL is curremtly working with the Department for Transport on options for the devolution of services originally suggested in Chris Gibb’s report on the Govia Thameslink Railway franchise, which could lead to ‘710s’ being deployed here.
I investigate it fully in A London Overground Replacement For Southern’s East Croydon And Milton Keynes Service.
This was my conclusion.
At the present time and until better data is available, I think the replacement service should be as follows.
- The Northern terminus should be Willesden Junction.
- The Southern terminus should be West Croydon station, where there are good tram and train connections.
- The route would be via Shepherds Bush, Kensington Olympia, West Brompton, Imperial Wharf, Clapham Junction, Wandsworth Common, Balham, Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill, Crystal Palace and Norwood Junction.
- Going via Gipsy Hill, rather than the current route via Selhurst, would give access to the connectivity at Norwood Junction.
- The frequency should be four tph.
- Trains will be four- or five-car Class 710 trains.
The benefits would be as follows.
- The rail hubs of Clapham Junction, Norwood Junction, West Croydon and Willesden Junction would be connected together by a Turn-Up-And-Go service.
- The proposed four tph service would need eight Class 710 trains, whereas the current one tph service needs eight Class 377 trains. Would this be better value?
In the future with a connection to High Speed Two in the Old Oak Common area, the benefits would increase.
- There would be a simple interchange with High Speed Two.
- South London from Clapham to Croydon, would get a direct service to High Speed Two.
- There would also be a better connection to Heathrow Airport and other rail services through Old Oak Common.
I think that the connection to High Speed Two trumps everything else.
I will keep returning to this vital link down thw West London Line.
Major Upgrade Planned For Norwood Junction Railway Station
The title of this post is the same as that of this article on IanVisits.
Ian introduces his article like this.
A somewhat shabby, and yet quite busy station in South London could get a major makeover if plans by Network Rail are approved.
The proposals are part of the wider plan to clean up the mess of tracks around Croydon to boost the capacity of the lines through the area, but it is also a stand-alone project.
Ian also has this visualisation of the upgraded Norwood Junction station.
Note.
- London Bridge station is to the left with East Croydon station to the right.
- The Main station entrance is on the near side, with the Clifford Road station entrance on the far side.
- Platform 1 & 2 is the highlighted island platform on the near side.
- Platform 3 & 4 is the highlighted island platform on the far side.
It looks expensive with two step-free bridges.
Both bridges have four sets of steps to.
- The Main Station Entrance.
- The Northbound Platform 1 & 2,
- The Southbound Platform 3 & 4
- The Clifford Road Entrance.
In addition, the Southern bridge has four lifts to the two entrances and two platforms.
These pictures show the current state of the station.
Currently, the station has three island platforms.
- They are connected by a well-lit, step-only subway.
- Some platforms are too short for twelve-car trains.
- The wooden buidings need a quality makeover. Where is Terry Stollery, when you need him?
- In the new layout, the central island platform will be removed, to allow a pair of fast lines through the station.
- One advantage of the subway is during the station upgrade, it can still be used to access the middle platforms, thus easing construction and causing less disruption for passengers.
After the upgrade, the layout will be as follows.
- Platforms 1 & 2, which are currently Platforms 2 & 3, would be for Northbound trains, with perhaps Platform 1 for stopping and Overground services and Platform 2 for limited-stop and Thameslink services.
- Platforms 3 & 4, which are currently Platforms 5 & 6, would be for Southbound trains, with perhaps Platform 3 for stopping and Overground services and Platform 4 for limited-stop and Thameslink services.
The subway will probably be closed.
Improved Train Services
For people like me, who live on the Overground, North of Norwood Junction station, hopefully it will solve the problem of getting to Gatwick Airport.
- It’ll just be a walk across the platform at Norwood Junction station, instead of a tram between West Croydon and East Croydon stations.
- In the future, would the cross-platform interchange help travellers between Crossrail and Gatwick and the South Coast?
- The Zeus of the Timetables could even make it better, by increasing the frequency of Thameslink trains between Norwood Junction and Gatwick Airport stations to match the four trains per hour (tph) between Dalston Junction and West Croydon stations.
Note that the day, I took the pictures Bedford and Highbury & Islington trains were in the current Platforms 2 & 3.
Up here in sometimes-forgotten Dalston, I’ll certainly give this new layout at Norwood Junction station, a high score, if the trains are changed to use it to advantage.
Norwood Junction Will Become A Major Interchange!
The walk-across interchange between Northbound services on platforms 1 & 2 and Southbound services on platforms 3 & 4, will mean that the station, will become the station where travellers will prefer change trains.
Suppose you were travelling from Luton to Epsom.
The Journey Planner on http://www.national.co.uk, suggests a double change at Farringdon and Carshalton, with a journey time of 1 hour and 51 minutes.
The upgraded Norwood Junction station, would allow the journey to be done in two legs.
- Luton and Norwood Junction – one hour and three minutes.
- Norwood Junction and Epsom – 29 minutes.
It could be quicker and it is a cross-platform change, where hopefully, there will be a climate-controlled waiting room and a coffee stall.
Current frequencies going North are as follows.
- Anerley – Six tph
- Balham – Two tph
- Battersea Park – Two tph
- Bedford – Two tph
- Brockley – Six tph
- City Thameslink – Two tph
- Clapham Junction – Two tph
- Crystal Palace – Two tph
- Dalston Junction – Four tph
- Farringdon – Two tph
- Flitwick – Two tph
- Forest Hill – six tph
- Gypsy Hill – Two tph
- Haggerston – Four tph
- Harlington – Two tph
- Harpenden – Two tph
- Highbury & Islington – Four tph
- Honor Oak Park – Six tph
- Leagrave – Two tph
- Hoxton – Four tph
- London Blackfriars – Two tph
- London Bridge (Non-stop) – Two tph
- London Bridge (Stopping) – Three tph
- London St. Pancras – Two tph
- London Victoria – Two tph
- Luton – Two tph
- Luton Airport Parkway – Two tph
- New Cross Gate – Six tph
- Penge West – Six tph
- Rotherhithe – Four tph
- Shadwell – Four tph
- Shoreditch High Street – Four tph
- St. Albans City – Two tph
- Streatham Hill – Two tph
- Surrey Quays – Four tph
- Sydenham – Six tph
- Wandsworth Common – Two tph
- Wapping – Four tph
- West Norwood – Two tph
- Whitechapel – Four tph
Current frequencies going South are as follows.
- Carshalton Beeches – Two tph
- Cheam – Two tph
- Coulsdon Town – Two tph
- Earlswood – Two tph
- East Croydon – Six tph
- Epsom – Two tph
- Ewell East – Two tph
- Gatwick Airport – Two tph
- Horley – Two tph
- Purley – Four tph
- Purley Oaks – Two tph
- Redhill – Two tph
- Reedham – Two tph
- Salfords – Two tph
- South Croydon – Two tph
- Sutton – Two tph
- Waddon – Two tph
- Wallington – Two tph
- West Croydon – Eight tph
In addition these services pass through.
- Bedford and Brighton – Two tph
- Cambridge and Brighton – Two tph
- London Brifge and Caterham & Tattenham Corner – Two tph
- London Bridge and Uckfield – Two tph
- Peterborough and Horsham – Two tph
It is a very comprehensive list of services and possible destinations.
I believe that if a few more trains stopped at Norwood Junction station, there could be at least two tph to every station connected to Norwood Junction station, with these higher frequencies to the more important stations.
- Bedford – Four tph
- Brighton – Four tph
- Canada Water – Four tph
- City Thameslink – Eight tph
- Clapham Junction – Four tph
- Crystal Palace – Four tph
- Dalston Junction – Four tph
- East Croydon – Eight tph
- Epsom – Four tph
- Farringdon – Eight tph
- Finsbury Park – Four tph
- Gatwick Airport – Four tph
- Highbury & Islington – Four tph
- London Blackfriars – Eight tph
- London Bridge (Non-stop) – Four tph
- London Bridge (Stopping) – Four tph
- London St. Pancras – Eight tph
- London Victoria – Four tph
- Luton – Four tph
- Luton Airport Parkway – Four tph
- St. Albans City – Four tph
- Stevenage – Four tph
- Sutton – Four tph
- Welwyn Garden City – Four tph
- West Croydon – Eight tph
- West Hampstead Thameslink – Four tph
- Whitechapel – Four tph
These frequencies could be attained, by stopping a few extra services at Norwood Junction station.
It is certainly comprehensive and getting to most important areas of Central London is direct or a single change.
- The step-free changes to Crossrail at Farringdon and Whitechapel will allow simple access to Canary Wharf, the City,, Heathrow, Paddington, the West End and all the towns and cities on the branches.
- The Bakerloo Line Extension will connect at New Cross Gate.
- The Central Line doesn’t connect
- The Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines connect at Farringdon, Kings Cross St. Pancras, London Blackfriars and Whitechapel.
- The Jubilee Line connects at Canada Water, London Bridge and West Hampstead Thameslink.
- The Northern Line connects at Kentish Town, Kings Cross St. Pancras and London Bridge
- The Piccadilly Line connects at Finsbury Park and Kings Cross St Pancras.
- The Victoria Line connects at Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington and Kings Cross St. Pancras.
But there are some important places that are not well-connected or have difficult interchanges to Norwood Junction station.
- Euston station, High Speed Two and the West Coast Main Line.
- Cannon Street, Charing Cross and Waterloo mean a complicated interchange at London Bridge.
- The connections to Great Northern services, the North London Line and the Victoria Line at Highbury & Islington need serious improvement.
- South East London needs going to London Bridge and coming out again!
Radical thinking and serious improvement is needed.
Milton Keynes Central and East Croydon
This is a useful service for some..
It calls at Bletchley, Leighton Buzzard, Tring, Berkhamsted, Hemel Hempstead, Watford Junction, Harrow & Wealdstone, Wembley Central, Shepherd’s Bush, Kensington (Olympia), West Brompton, Imperial Wharf, Clapham Junction, Balham, Streatham Common, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Selhurst.
But, it has problems.
- It has a high level of cancellation.
- It has a totally inadequate hourly frequency.
- It has no connection to the North London Line at Willesden Junction.
- It blocks a platform at East Croydon, when it turns round.
In his report on Southern, Chris Gibb recommended that the service be the responsibility of the London Overground. I wrote about this in Gibb Report – East Croydon – Milton Keynes Route Should Be Transferred To London Overground.
To connect High Speed Two at Old Oak Common, there needs to be a four tph service between Croydon and Old Oak Common.
Transport for London are proposing a new Hythe Road station on the West London Line..
- It will be a seven hundred metre walk to the High Speed Two station. That is too long!
- There will be a bay platform to turn trains from Clapham Junction.
- Trains still won’t be able to call at Willesden Junction for the North London Line.
I think that building Hythe Road station is a bad idea.
This map shows the lines in the area.
Surely, the West London Line should have been re-routed over the Eastern end of Old Oak Common station at right angles, which would have the following benefits.
- Quick and easy interchange with High Speed Two, the Great Western Main Line and Crossrail.
- The ability to add bay platforms to terminate services.
- Sharing of station services with the other stations.
Perhaps, though this practical passenger and operator-friendly idea would have ruined the architect’s vision.
Or is it, that the current track layout to connect to the West Coast Main Line only allows crap solutions.
Surely, the amount of money being spent on High Speed Two allows the best to be done everywhere.
London Overground principles say that services must be at least four tph.
The simplest way to do this would be to extend the current Stratford and Clapham Junction service via Willesden Junction to Croydon.
- It would call at Balham, Streatham Common, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Selhurst, if it followed the current route.
- I doubt that East Croydon station could handle four tph terminating at the station.
But why not use the route taken by London Victoria and West Croydon services via Wandsworth Common, Balham, Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill, Crystal Palace, and Norwood Junction, to terminate at West Croydon?
- This route calls at Norwood Junction, with all its connectivity.
- If needed, there is space for a new platform at West Croydon.
I’ve no idea, what will happen, but the upgrade at Norwood Junction station should help.
Suppose you were going between Gatwick and High Speed Two.
- The standard route will be Thameslink and Crossrail with a change at Farringdon.
- A surface route with a change at Norwood Junction could be an alternative.
The second may be more pleasurable.
Upgrading The Station
In Winner Announced In The Network Rail Footbridge Design Ideas Competition, I wrote how the competition was won by this bridge.
So could two factory-built bridges like this be installed at Norwood Junction station?
- The design is adaptable to multiple spans over the tracks.
- Lifts could be left out for one bridge.
- Once the site is prepared, I believe the bridges can be quickly installed, probably from a train with a crane.
- The bridge is probably more affordable, than a traditional design.
During the installation period, the existing subway can be used for platform access.
Conclusion
Obviously, I am speculating that the new footbridge system will be used at Norwood Junction station.
But the new platform and track layout at the station, will certainly improve services on these routes.
- Between East Croydon and London Bridge stations.
- Between East Croydon and the London Overground and Crossrail.
- Between the Overground and Gatwick Airport station and the South Coast.
All of the interchanges will be step-free and some will be cross-plsatform.
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The Anonymous Widower 