The Anonymous Widower

A New Route Between New Cross Gate And Queen’s Park Stations

In Does The Elizabeth Line Offer Similar Benefits To The Bakerloo Line Extension?, I said this.

I suspect that the easiest way between New Cross Gate and Harrow & Wealdstone will be with changes at Whitechapel and Paddington.

I also said, I would try out the route today.

I did a shorter route between New Cross Gate And Queen’s Park stations, with the same two changes.

For each extra station, I can apply Irene’s Law, by adding two minutes for each station.

I took these pictures on the route.

Note.

  1. On the Overground and the Elizabeth Line, there were few spare seats and a number of standees.
  2. Quite a few passengers changed at Whitechapel.
  3. The tunnel at Paddington between Elizabeth and Bakerloo Lines wasn’t very busy.
  4. The Bakerloo Line wasn’t very busy.

I have a few thoughts.

First Time Riders

I got the impression, a lot of passengers were first-time riders.

This could explain the passenger numbers.

Timings

These were my timings.

  • It took me forty-six minutes for the fourteen stations.
  • The interchange at Whitechapel was about four minutes.
  • At Paddington, I walked between the Elizabeth and Bakerloo Line platforms in under five minutes and then just missed a Northbound train.

Irene’s Law

I talk about Irene’s Law in Irene’s Law – Estimating Tube Journey Times, where I define it like this.

If you want to get an estimate of how long a journey will take on the London Underground, you count the number of stations and multiply by two, before adding five for every interchange.

For the Overground, I’ve found that using three minutes for the number of stations gives a reasonable answer.

So how does it fit for my journey?

  • The base time is forty-six minutes.
  • Deduct ten minutes for the two changes gives thirty-six minutes.
  • 36/14 gives 2.6 minutes.

I’ll go with that! But it looks like for a mixed journey like this, 2.5 might give a rough estimate.

How Would This Time Compare With An Extended Bakerloo Line?

Consider.

  • New Cross Gate station could be on an extended Bakerloo Line.
  • The Bakerloo Line timetable gives a time of 26 minutes between Queen’s Park and Elephant & Castle stations.
  • There are three extra stations, which would probably be two minutes per station.

So the time between Queen’s Park and New Cross Gate stations would be 32 minutes via an extended Bakerloo line.

Conclusion

It looks like an extended Bakerloo Line will be a few minutes quicker.

But that the Elizabeth Line will be a good alternative for a few years.

My feeling is that the Elizabeth Line will have enough capacity for several years, but that eventually the Bakerloo Line will need to be extended.

May 28, 2022 Posted by | Transport/Travel | , , , , , , | 1 Comment

Would It Be Possible For The Bakerloo And Watford DC Lines To Use The Same Trains?

These two lines are very different.

Ten stations are shared between the lines, of which only one; Queen’s Park offers level boarding.

The Shared Stations

The nine shared stations often have considerable steps up and down, as at Willesden Junction station, which is shown in Train-Platform Interface On Platform 1 At Willesden Junction.

I am rather pleased and pleasantly surprised, that there are not more accidents at the shared stations, but using the line must be a nightmare for wheelchair users, buggy pushes and large case draggers.

If Transport for London proposed building a line like this, they would have to launch it at the Apollo, where comedians perform.

The One Train Type Solution

To my mind, there is only one solution. The two services must use the same type of trains.

These are a few thoughts on the trains.

Trains Would Be Underground-Sized

As the trains will have to work through the existing tunnels to Elephant & Castle station, the trains would have to be compatible with the tunnels and therefore sized for the Underground.

I suspect they would be a version of the New Tube for London, that are currently being built by Siemens for the Piccadilly Line.

New Tube For London And Class 710 Train Compared

These figures are from Wikipedia.

  • Cars – NTFL – 9 – 710 – 4
  • Car Length – NTFL –  12.6 metres – 710 – 20 metres
  • Seated Passengers – NTFL – 268 – 710 – 189
  • Total Passengers – NTFL – 1076 – 710 – 678
  • Passenger Density – NTFL – 9.5 per metre – 710 – 8.2 per metre
  • Speed – NTFL – 62 mph – 710 – 75 mph

Note.

The passenger density and speed are closer than I thought they’d be.

I’m sure Siemens can design a longer and faster train if required for the Euston service.

I feel that the New Tube for London could be designed, so that it could work the Watford DC service.

Platform Modifications

I suspect that the New Tube for London will be lower than the Class 710 train and all platforms would need to be lowered to fit the new trains.

I would also suspect that it would be easier to lower platforms, than modify them, so that they had dual-height sections to satisfy two classes of train.

It should be noted that the New Tube for London has shorter cars than the sixteen metre 1972 Stock trains currently used on the line, so there will be smaller gaps at stations with curved platforms like Waterloo.

I believe that with one class of train, all of the stations on the Bakerloo and Watford DC Lines could be made step-free between train and platform.

Queen’s Park And Euston

This map from cartometro.com, shows the route between Queen’s Park and Euston stations.

Note.

  1. The Watford DC Line is shown in orange.
  2. Queen’s Park station is to the West of Kilburn High Road station.
  3. It appears that Watford DC Line trains always use Platform 9 at Euston station.

The route seems to be a self-contained third-rail electrified line into Euston station.

On the subject of electrification between Queen’s Park and Euston stations, there would appear to be a choice between the third-rail system and London Underground’s four-rail system.

But it is rumoured that the New Tube for London will have a battery capability.

As Euston and Queen’s Park stations are only 3.7 miles apart, perhaps the choice would be to use battery power into Euston station, which would remove electrified rails from Euston?

How Many Trains Could Run Into Euston?

Currently, four trains per hour run into Euston.

It is generally accepted that six tph can use a single platform. But would this be enough?

I suppose there is the possibility of tunnelling under Euston station to a pair of terminal platforms.

In that case the current platform could be used by other services.

Southern’s Milton Keynes And Clapham Junction Service

This service wouldn’t be affected as it uses the fast lines between Willesden and Watford.

Conclusion

A common fleet used by the Bakerloo and Watford DC Line would appear to give advantages.

 

 

 

 

November 4, 2021 Posted by | Design, Transport/Travel | , , , , , , | 6 Comments

Queens Park Station To Go Step-Free

This document on the Government web site is entitled Access for All: 73 Stations Set To Benefit From Additional Funding.

Queens Park station is on the list.

These pictures show the station and the current access.

This is one station, where the Bakerloo Line and Watford DC Lines have fairly good step-free access between train and platform.

The following needs to be done.

  • Provide lifts from both platforms to the booking hall and the gateline.
  • Extra services to Blackpool may terminate at the station and this would mean adding step-free access to the main line platforms.

I feel the most difficult part of the project will be adding the step-free access, whilst keeping the station fully open.

May 7, 2019 Posted by | Transport/Travel | , , | Leave a comment