The Anonymous Widower

High Speed Two To Crewe

There has been a lot of speculation about the Northern end of High Speed Two, so I might as well add sort out a few facts and add a bit of  speculation of my own.

Sample Times Between London And Crewe

These are selected times from the 27th September 2023.

• 07:30 – Glasgow Non-Stop – 1:29
• 07:33 – Manchester Piccadilly – 1:37 – Stops at Stafford
• 07:43 – Liverpool Lime Street – 1:40 – Stops at Milton Keynes
• 08:30 – Glasgow Non-Stop – 1:29
• 08:33 – Manchester Piccadilly – 1:37 – Stops at Stafford
• 08:43 – Liverpool Lime Street – 1:40 – Stops at Milton Keynes
• 09:02 – Holyhead – 1:40 – Stop at Stafford
• 15:02 – Chester – 1:40 – Stops at Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley and Stafford

Note.

1. The 07:30 and 08:30 Glasgow services appears to be pathed for one of the Class 390 Pendolino electric trains and were run by Pendolinos.
2. The 07:33 and 08:33 Manchester services appears to be pathed for one of the Pendolino electric trains and were run by Pendolinos.
3. The 07:43 and 08:43 Liverpool services appears to be pathed for one of the new Class 807 electric trains, but were run by Pendolinos.
4. The 15:02 Chester service appears to be pathed for one of the new Class 805 bi-mode trains.
5. All services except the Glasgow services stop at Crewe.
6. As London Euston and Crewe is 158 miles, the non-stop Glasgow services average 107 mph, the one-stop Manchester service averages 98 mph and the one-stop Liverpool service averages 95 mph.

I have some further thoughts.

How Long Does A Stop Take?

I’ve looked at some stops of Glasgow, Liverpool and Manchester services

Crewe

Looking at timings between Weaver Junction and Norton Bridge, I have found the following times.

• Glasgow-Euston – 23 minutes
• Liverpool-Euston – 28 minutes

Note.

1. Manchester services don’t go through Weaver Junction.
2. Weaver Junction and Norton Bridge are respectively North and South of Crewe.
3. The Liverpool service stops at Crewe, where it has a dwell time of two minutes.
4. The Glasgow service goes straight through Crewe.

The Crewe stop takes a total of 5 minutes of which 3 minutes are deceleration and acceleration to and from linespeed.

Stafford

Looking at timings between Norton Bridge and Colwich, I have found the following times.

• Glasgow-Euston – 7½ minutes
• Liverpool-Euston – 7½ minutes
• Manchester -Euston – 14 minutes

Note.

1. Norton Bridge and Colwich are respectively North and South of Stafford.
2. The Manchester service stops at Stafford, where it has a dwell time of two minutes.
3. The Glasgow and Liverpool services go straight through Stafford.

The Stafford stop takes a total of 6½ minutes of which 4½ minutes are deceleration and acceleration to and from linespeed.

Milton Keynes

Looking at timings between Weedon and Bletchley, I have found the following times.

• Glasgow-Euston – 11½ minutes
• Liverpool-Euston – 16 minutes
• Manchester -Euston – 12½ minutes

Note.

1. Weedon and Bletchley are respectively North and South of Milton Keynes.
2. The Liverpool service stops at Milton Keynes, where it has a dwell time of one minute.
3. The Glasgow and Manchester services go straight through Milton Keynes.

The Milton Keynes stop takes a total of 4 minutes of which 3 minutes are deceleration and acceleration to and from linespeed.

Average Speeds Between Crewe And London

London Ruston and Crewe is 158 miles according to Real Time Trains.

So what would times would various average speeds deliver?

• 100 mph – 95 minutes
• 110 mph – 86 minutes
• 120 mph – 79 minutes
• 125 mph – 76 minutes
• 130 mph – 73 minutes
• 140 mph – 68 minutes

Obviously, any average speed with over 125 mph running, will need full digital signalling.

Liverpool And London In Two Hours

Tucked away beside the Grand Union Sets Out Stirling Ambitions article in the December 2022 Edition of Modern Railways is a report on Avanti West Coast’s application for a second service between Euston and Liverpool.

This is said.

Avanti West Coast has applied for access rights for its second hourly Euston to Liverpool service, starting from December 2023, although a phased introduction of the new service is likely. This would make use of Avanti’s new fleet of 10×7-car Class 807 Hitachi EMUs, which are expected to enter service from Autumn 2023. The ‘807s’ would be deployed on the current hourly Liverpool service, on which a call at Liverpool South Parkway would be added. (provision is made for this in the December 2022 timetable.).

Pendolinos would then operate the second service each hour, calling at Lichfield Trent Valley and Tamworth.

A linespeed project is in progress to raise the permissible speed for non-tilting trains on the West Coast Main Line, and Avanti’s new Hitachi trains will take advantage of this.

I’ll take a quick look at the Crewe and Runcorn section.

• It is 22.5 miles.
• It takes 19 minutes.
• That is an average speed of 71 mph.
• Crewe and Weaver Junction has a speed limit of at least 110 mph
• Runcorn and Weaver Junction has a speed limit of at least 90 mph for most of the way.
• If with their superior performance, the new Class 807 trains could average 90 mph between Crewe and Runcorn, they would take 15 minutes.
• Achieving the 90 mph average may need a bit of track realignment and some signaling changes.

The four minutes saved would be enough to handle the extra stop at Liverpool South Parkway.

Consider.

• Currently, Pendolino trains do Liverpool and Crewe in 38 minutes, which includes the stop at Runcorn.
• My calculation with the Class 807 trains, shows that with a bit of extra signalling, the new trains could do Liverpool and Crewe in 38 minutes with the two stops.
• The stop at Crewe will subtract 5 minutes from the base journey time.
• The stop at Milton Keynes will subtract 4 minutes from the base journey time.

This means the base journey time between Crewe and London will be 73 minutes.

This would indicate that the trains would be running at 130 mph to achieve the two hours.

But there are five accelerations and five decelerations on a journey between London and Liverpool and the new Class 807 trains are the Lotuses of Hitachi’s family of AT-300 trains; lightweight and powerful.

Suppose they could save thirty seconds for each acceleration and deceleration.

The base journey time between Crewe and London will be 78 minutes.

This would indicate that the trains would be running at over 120 mph to achieve the two hours.

I certainly feel, that Liverpool and London in two hours is certainly possible using the new Class 807 trains.

London and Crewe with two stops would be times at one hour and twelve minutes.

But what about the Pendolinos?

• My last return trip from Liverpool did a practice call at Liverpool South Parkway and still arrived in London a few minutes early.
• The Pendolinos will still benefit from any improvements, between Crewe and Runcorn, which could reduce the Liverpool and Crewe time from 38 minutes to 34 minutes.
• The stop at Crewe will subtract 5 minutes from the base journey time.
• The stops at Lichfield Trent Valley and Tamworth will both subtract 4 minutes from the base journey time.

This means the base journey time between Crewe and London will be 73 minutes, which is the same as for the Class 807 trains.

This would indicate that the trains would be running at 130 mph to achieve the two hours.

Could this average speed be achieved by the selective application of full digital signalling, perhaps on the Trent Valley Line?

But it does appear to me, that the Pendolinos can get very close to two hours between London and Liverpool.

London and Crewe with three stops would be times at one hour and sixteen minutes.

Crewe And London Non-Stop

Consider.

• Pendolinos between London and Glasgow, go non-stop between London and Crewe.
• I have calculated that Pendolinos between London and Liverpool, will take one hour and sixteen minutes with three stops between London and Crewe.
• The three stops take a total of thirteen minutes.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see London and Glasgow Pendolinos take one hour and three minutes between London and Crewe.

This would knock twenty-six minutes off journey times between London and Glasgow.

Conclusion

I believe that with relatively minor improvements on the West Coast Main Line and the Liverpool branch, the following can be achieved.

• Liverpool and London can be around two hours with new Class 807 trains or Pendolinos.
• Liverpool and London services can increase their calls in the Midlands.
• London and Glasgow services can be nearly half-an-hour faster.
• The fastest London and Crewe services could be just over an hour using Pendolinos.

I also believe that the only serious infrastructure needed is some track realignment and some updated signalling.

See Also

Could High Speed Two Finish At Lichfield?

High Speed Two To Holyhead

High Speed Two To Lancaster

High Speed Two To Liverpool

High Speed Two To Manchester

High Speed Two To Stoke-on-Trent

High Speed Two To Wigan

September 30, 2023 Posted by AnonW | Transport/Travel | Avanti West Coast, Chester Station, Class 390 Train, Class 805 Train, Class 807 Train, Class AT-300 Train, Crewe Station, Euston Station, Glasgow Central Station, High Speed Two, High Speed Two Classic-Compatible Trains, High Speed Two Lite, Holyhead Station, Liverpool Lime Street Station, Manchester Piccadilly Station, Milton Keynes Central Station, Stafford Station, West Coast Main Line | 11 Comments