Manchester Metrolink To Gorton And Glossop
The Wikipedia entry for the Manchester Metrolink doesn’t say much about Glossop, except that one of the original lines would have taken over the Glossop Line to Gorton, Glossop and Hadfield stations.
In Manchester Metrolink Extensions In A Sentence, I quoted this sentence from the Manchester Evening News.
It includes tram extensions to Port Salford, Middleton and Stalybridge, plus ‘tram trains’ to Hale, Warrington, Gorton and Glossop.
How would tram-trains from Gorton and Glossop join the current Metrolink network at Piccadilly station?
Consider.
- Glossop Line trains use the low-numbered platforms on the Northern side of Manchester Piccadilly station.
- Some plans have shown High Speed Two platforms on the save side of Piccadilly station.
Look at this Google Map of the Northern side of the station.
Note.
- Two trams crossing the green space to the North of the station.
- The area between the tram lines and the tracks going into Piccadilly station, appears to be mainly car parking and low-grade buildings.
- The tracks leading to Gorton and Glossop are on the Northern side of Piccadilly station.
These are a few pictures of the area.to the North of the station.
I feel it would be very feasible for tram-trains to connect the Glossop Line and the tram station underneath the main station.
In fact there would be no reason, why tram-trains shouldn’t continue to serve Manchester Piccadilly train station.
High Speed Two
High Speed Two’s terminals in Manchester is in a state of foux at the moment, so it might be preferable to just replace all Glossop Line services with tram-trains and use Manchester Piccadilly tram station.
Updating The Glossop Line
The Glossop Line is electrified with 25 KVAC overhead wires, which looks to be one of the systems in worst condition in the UK along with the Crouch Valley Line in Essex.
It would probably need replacing, as the rust weevils holding it up, must be getting very tired.
To say that some stations look like they’ve seen better times, is an understatement.
Class 399 Tram-Trains For Manchester
Transport for Greater Manchester are serious about tram-trains and I believe that their usefullness to the City could be explored by running the existing service between Manchester Piccadilly and Glossop using a small fleet.
Conclusion
Extending the Manchester Metrolink to Gorton and Glossop using tram-trains appears to be very feasible.
In my view, it would have made a good trial route to prove the concept of tram-trains in the UK.
Manchester Metrolink Extensions In A Sentence
This article on the Manchester Evening News, sums up the extensions to the Manchester Metrolink like this.
It includes tram extensions to Port Salford, Middleton and Stalybridge, plus ‘tram trains’ to Hale, Warrington, Gorton and Glossop.
We all need more pithy sentences like this. Me included!
Trafford Park Line – June 2nd 2019
In Walking From Pomona To MediaCityUK, I showed the progress of the Trafford Park Line in February 2019.
These pictures show the current progress.
They were taken from a tram arriving at Pomona.
The Most Annoying Thing They Do To Trams
When I first arrive in a city, I tend to take a ride on the local trams to get my bearings.
But it is difficult, to see where you are and what you are doing, if the tram is covered in advertising, like this one in Manchester.
It means that visitors can’t see the city properly. Hopefully, locals know their city!
I remember visiting one city, where every tram was wrapped in advertising.
The city wasn’t very interesting, so perhaps that was the reason.
Comparing Trams And Tram-Trains In Manchester And Sheffield
In Could A Class 399 Tram-Train With Batteries Go Between Manchester Victoria And Rochdale/Bury Bolton Street/Rawtenstall Stations?, I discussed how Class 399 tram-trains might be used on a route in the Manchester area.
This was my conclusion.
Could we see tram-trains running from Bury Bolton Street, Hebden Bridge, Rawtenstall and Rochdale into Manchester Victoria and then taking to the existing tram network?
If you’ve ever been to Karlsruhe, as I have to see the Class 399 tram-trains German cousins, you wouldn’t rule out anything.
That would include tram-train services to Blackburn, Buxton, Chester, Glossop, Hebden Bridge, Sheffield, Southport and Wigan.
So how do Manchester’s M5000 trams, Sheffield’s Supertrams compare to the Class 399 tram-train?
Body Construction
- M5000 – Aluminium
- Supertram – Steel
- Class 399 – Lightweight Stainless Steel
Does the Class 399 use lightweight stainless steel to give enhanced crash protection and better corrosion resistance?
Sections, Doors and Length
- M5000 – 2, 4 and 38.4 metres
- Supertram – 3, 4 and 34.8 metres
- Class 399 – 3, 4 and 37.2 metres
Capacity
- M5000 – 60 or 66 seats, 149 standing, 209/215 maximum
- Supertram – 86 seats, 155 standing, 241 maximum
- Class 399 – 88 seats and 150 standing, 238 maximum
The M5000 is a bit less because it is a shorter vehicle with less standing space.
Entrance Height
- M5000 – 0.98 metres
- Supertram – 0.42 metres
- Class 399 – .425 metres
The Supertram and the Class 399 have obviously been built to be able to use the same tram platforms in Sheffield.
Wikipedia says this about standard UK platform height.
The standard height for platforms is 915 mm with a margin of +0,-25 mm
But it would appear that the M5000 is not far from the UK standard height, but the Class 399 is 0.465 metres too low.
Consider.
- The entrance height of a Greater Anglia Class 755 train, which is a bi-mode FLIRT is 0.96 metres.
- On the South Wales Metro, variants of Class 399 tram/trains and Class 755 trains will share platforms.
So Stadler must have a nifty solution to overcome the platform height difference for these two trains, which is similar to that in Manchester between a Class 399 tram-train and an M5000.
If it’s on the tram-train, then Stadler have a solution, that will allow Class 399 tram-trains to run on the Manchester Metrolink.
The datasheet for the Class 399 tram-train says this about the suspension of the tram-train.
Smooth and silent operation with secondary air suspension and resilient wheels.
Secondary air suspension is not new on trains, as it certainly featured on British Rail Mark 3 coaches from the 1970s, which have a legendary smooth ride. It can still be seen between the bogie and the coach on many Bombardier trains, which trace their ancestry to British Rail designs.
The picture shows the bogie on a Class 378 train.
Note the air-suspension above the frame of the bogie.
Some cars use secondary air suspension with computers to control the amount of air in each rubber bag to improve the ride and road-holding.
Transport for London measure the pressure in the suspension and use this to calculate train loading. I described this application in Is This The Hippest Train Status Displays?
Could the air bags be pumped up to raise the train and and reduced in pressure to drop it a few centimetres?
There are certainly suspension engineers, in the automotive and motor-sport industries, who have relevant experience and could suggest a solution.
All this speculation is a bit like Lew Grasde’s quote on the film Raise the Titanic on which he lost a lot of money.
Raise The Titanic? It would have been cheaper to lower the Atlantic!
Here it’s a bit of the reverse as if the tram-trains can be adjusted to the platform height, then hundreds of platforms don’t need to be rebuilt.
Suppose the platforms were built to fit an existing tram or train.
- On the Manchester Metrolink the platforms would fit the M5000 trams.
- On the Sheffield Supertram, the platforms would fit the Supertrams.
- On the South Wales Metro, the platforms would fit the Welsh variant of the Class 755 train.
The Class 399 tram-trains running in Sheffield have their suspension adjusted on mnufacture and in the depot, so that there is level access between tram-train and platform.
Could the same tram-trains be adjusted so that they fit the Manchester Metrolink platforms, which are higher?
If they can, then Manchester has got a source of off-the-shelf tram-trains.
The picture shows a Class 399 tram-train at Rotherham Parkgate. Note the level access at the orange door in the foreground.
Manchester would need a different colour as Chelsea Blue wouldn’t be appropriate.
The intriguing idea, is can the same Class 399 tram-trains run in both Manchester and Sheffield, with the tram-train’s computer adjusting the ride height to suit the different height of platforms?
At present the answer is probably no, as if they could then there wouldn’t be dual-height platforms at Rotherham Central station.
Note the slopes down on both sides of the tracks from the high-level train platforms in the background, to the low-level tram platforms in the foreground.
It all depends on whether the suspension design is possible.
If it is, which I doubt, it would get round the bit problem of platforms on tram-train systems.
Weight
- M5000 – 30.7 tonnes
- Supertram – 46.5 tonnes
- Class 399 – .66.1 tonnes
The Class 399 tram-train is a heavy beast so raising it by much might be difficult, as you changed from Sheffield to Manchester heights.
Operating Speed
- M5000 – 80 kph
- Supertram – 80 kph
- Class 399 – .100 kph
Power And Power/Weight Ratio
- M5000 – 480 kW – 15.6 kW/tonne
- Supertram – 1108kW – 23.8 kW/tonne
- Class 399 – 870 kW – 13.2 kW/tonne
Noye.
- By comparison the power/weight ratio of a Class 321 train is just 7.9 kW/tonne
- I have talked to Sheffield tram-drivers and their view is that the Class 399 tram-trains handle Sheffield’s hills better with a full load of passengers.
- The Class 399 has six traction motors, whereas the others have four.
So perhaps, the way that the Class 399 tram-train puts its power to the rail with more driven axles, is important.
Conclusion
I am convinced that just as Sheffield’s Supertram can work happily with Class 399 tram-trains, Stadler have ways and means of making Manchester Metrolink’s M5000 trams work with the tram-trains.
If the Class 399 tram-train is compatible with both tram networks, this will be a great advantage in designing new tram-train routes.
It would also mean that one day, a tram-train service could run from Cathedral in Sheffield to Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester via the Hope Valley Line.
I suspect that a lot of local services from the two cities will be run by tram-train services, that cross the cities.
Walking From Pomona To MediaCityUK
I took these pictures as I walked between Pomona and MediaCityUK tram stops in Manchester.
I walked along the linear construction site of the new Trafford Park Line of the Manchester Metrolink.
The new line should open in 2021.
Conclusion
If you like walking alongside water, as I do, it is good way to see some of Manchester’s new attractions like the Impreial War Museum North and The Lowry.
Tram-Trains At Manchester Victoria Station
In Could A Class 399 Tram-Train With Batteries Go Between Manchester Victoria And Rochdale/Bury Bolton Street/Rawtenstall Stations?, I speculated on how tram-trains from Rochdale, Bury Bolton Street and Rawtenstall stations might join the Manchester Metro Link at Manchester Victoria station.
I showed this Google Map of the lines at Manchester Victoria.
On my weekend trip to the North, I took these pictures yesterday from the Metrolink platforms at Manchester Victoria.
I can’t believe that it would be the most difficult track design project to allow tram-trains to swap between the rail and tram networks at this point.
The bigger problem, is probably to decide, where the tram-trains would go on the other side of Manchester.
On the other hand, they could use electrified rail lines to Bolton or Wigan North Western.
- The performance and capacity of a Class 399 tram-train is very comparable to a Pacer.
- Wigan North Western station has three South-facing bay platforms.
Manchester’s Metrolink designers are going to have a lot of fun.
Could A Class 399 Tram-Train With Batteries Go Between Manchester Victoria And Rochdale/Bury Bolton Street/Rawtenstall Stations?
In Rossendale Reopening Prospect, I looked at a proposal to run a new service between Manchester Victoria and Bury Bolton Street stations.
Could this route be run by a Class 399 tram-train with a battery capability?
These tram-trains would be very similar to the Stadler Citylink Metro Vehicles, that have been specified for the South Wales Metro.
- Wikipedia gives the weight of the vehicle as 66 tonnes.
- Manchester Victoria has an altitude of 44 metres
- Bury has an altitude of 100 metres.
- Rochdale has an altitude of 137 metres.
- Rawtenstall has an altitude of 174 metres.
- I will assume 200 passengers at 90 Kg. each, which gives a weight of 12 tonnes.
Using Omni’s Potential Energy Calculator gives the following.
- Manchester Victoria to Bury Bolton Street has an increase in potential energy of 12 kWh.
- Manchester Victoria to Rochdale has an increase in potential energy of 20 kWh.
- Manchester Victoria to Rawtenstall has an increase in potential energy of 28 kWh.
When you consider that a Class 230 train has 400 kWh of batteries in a two-car train, I don’t think that there will be any problem fitting batteries big enough to take a Class 399 tram-train from Manchester Victoria to Bury Bolton Street, Rochdale or Rawstenstall stations under battery power with a full load of passengers.
- The batteries would be charged in Manchester Victoria station.
- Returning to Manchester Victoria station would use a small amount of battery power, with some assistance from Newton’s friend; gravity.
- The batteries would get a certain amount of charge from the regenerative braking of the tram-trains.
This Google Map shows the Eastern approaches into Manchester Victoria station.
Note.
- The four through platforms numbered 3 to 6.
- The two bay platforms numbered 1 and 2.
- The four platform faces and three tracks of the Metrolink.
Having seen several tram-train systems all over Europe, I believe it would be possible to connect tram-trains running on batteries on the Calder Valley Line to the Manchester Metrolink at Manchester Victoria station.
- Going from Manchester to Bury Bolton Street, Rochdale or Rawtenstall, the tram-train would stop in the Manchester Victoria tram-stop, drop the pantograph and then continue on its way under battery power.
- Returning from the North, the tram-train would stop in the Manchester Victoria tram-stop, raise the pantograph and then continue on its way using power from the overhead wires.
- Batteries would be charged whilst running through Manchester.
There couldn’t be too many tram-train systems that would be easier to build than this?
It is interesting to note that Hebden Bridge station is just twenty-three miles from Manchester Victoria station and has an altitude of 190 metres.
So would it be possible for a Class 399 tram-train to reach Hebden Bridge station on battery power? I very much think it would be!
Class 399 Tram-Trains And Class 156 Trains
Class 156 trains are one of the better workhorses of the railways in the North and despite their age, they scrub up well.
If their performance is compared to that of a Class 399 tram-train, they are not that different.
- Noise and vibration of the electric tram-train is obviously much lower.
- The modern interior of the tram-train is geared to the needs of passengers.
- Passenger capacity of the two vehicles is also about the same.
- In Karlsruhe, tram-trains travel for up to 100 miles from the centre of the city.
Both Karlsruhe and Sheffield use three-car tram-trains, but Valencia uses much longer ones, so on heavily-used routes larger tram-trains could be used.
I doubt there would be many complaints, if a Class 156 service were to be replaced with one run by Class 399 tram-trains.
Electrification Of The Calder Valley Line
Electrifying the Calder Valley Line with 25 KVAC overhead wires as far as Rochdale station, would certainly make running to Hebden Bridge station possible.
- That electrification would also mean that electric trains could be turned-back at Rochdale station, just as diesel trains are now!
- I have flown my helicopter along the route and it looks like of the seven or eight bridges on the route, mostly appear to be modern structures for new roads or motorways.
- As 25 KVAC overhead electrification is currently being erected between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge, a spur to Rochdale would be very much a simple addition.
It could be a very useful short length of electrification.
Tram-Trains In Manchester
This article on Rail Technology Magazine was puiblished yesterday and is entitled Plans For Tram-Trains In Manchester Unveiled As Grayling And Burnham Mull Expansion Of Metrolink.
Conclusion
Could we see tram-trains running from Bury Bolton Street, Hebden Bridge, Rawtenstall and Rochdale into Manchester Victoria and then taking to the existing tram network?
If you’ve ever been to Karlsruhe, as I have to see the Class 399 tram-trains German cousins, you wouldn’t rule out anything.
That would include tram-train services to Blackburn, Buxton, Chester, Glossop, Hebden Bridge, Sheffield, Southport and Wigan.
Progress At Pomona – 17th November 2017
Pomona tram stop will become the interchange between the Eccles Line and the new Trafford Park Line on the Manchester Metrolink.
As work has now started on the Trafford Park Line, I went to take a look.
I also walked along the canal to the entrance to the Trafford Park Estate.
This Google Map shows the area.
Note.
- The single bridge to the East takes the tram over the Irwell.
- The double-bridge takes masses of traffic to and from Manchester City Centre.
- The Trafford Park Line goes along the River Irwell.
When completed, there will be the River Irwell, the Trafford Park tram line, the Canal and the railway running through together.
The rail line is a curious one, as it has a two-hourly service between Manchester Piccadilly/Oxford Road and Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington, which stops at Trafford Park station and additionally Manchester United Football Ground station on match days only.
I’m pretty certain, that in perhaps 1966, I had my last ride on a steam-hauled British Rail service between Oxford Road and the football ground.
Surely in these days, a two-hourly service is inadequate and the frequency should be at least two trains per hour.
Karlsruhe would apply a tram-train solution and tram-trains from perhaps Warrington, would join the Trafford Park tram line to go through Manchester City Centre.
Could Platform 13 And 14 At Manchester Piccadilly Station Be Improved?
I took this picture on the island platform 13 /14, at Manchester Piccadilly station on my trip to the North last week.
I actually took the picture, as I wanted to check if the lines were electrified, which can be seen.
Services Through Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly and Salford Crescent Stations
After the current works on the Ordsall Chord has been completed, Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly and Salford Crescent stations will form a triangle of lines and stations, through which services passing through Manchester will travel. This map from Wikipedia shows the lines in a simplified form.
Note the lines to Leeds, Bolton, Liverpool, Warrington, Stockport. It is a real Crossrails of the North.
The only similar intensive set of railway junctions in a city with multiple terminal stations is be the tangle of lines across the South Bank of the Thames in London encompassing London Bridge, Cannon Street, Blackfriars, Waterloo East and Charing Cross stations. This map from Wikipedia shows the lines in a simplified form.
Simple it is not!
As an aside it should be noted that Thameslink is planned to run twenty-four trains per hour (tph), through the central core tunnel, of which sixteen tph stop at both Blackfriars and London Bridge stations. Add in the 14 tph terminating at Charing Cross and the 16 tph terminating at Cannon Street, all of which stop at London Bridge and you get a measure of the capability of modern signalling.
Northern Electric Services To Manchester Airport
As I write this, Northern Electrics trains from Liverpool Lime Street, Edinburgh via Wigan North Western and Blackpool North via Bolton are all scheduled to call in Platforms 13 at Manchester Piccadilly station within the next hour on their way to Manchester Airport. Only the Liverpool service is run by an electric train, which is one of the 100 mph Class 319 trains.
But after the Manchester to Preston Line via Bolton and the Blackpool Branch Lines are electrified and the Ordsall Chord is opened, which will hopefully happen late in 2017, there could be more Northern |Electrics services through these platforms going to Manchester Airport from these and other stations.
- Barrow-in-Furness – Flex
- Blackpool North
- Bolton
- Blackburn – Flex
- Huddersfield – Flex
- Liverpool Lime Street
- Manchester Victoria
- Preston
- Stalybridge – Flex
- Warrington Central – Flex
- Windermere – Flex
Stations marked with Flex will be run by Class 319 Flex trains, but as they will be running on the overhead wires through these platforms to and from the Airport, they can be considered to be the same as the electric Class 319 trains.
If you look at the current service between Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Airport stations, the frequency is something like eight trains per hour.
So there will be a large number of electric trains going through Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly! And the trains will be getting longer, with the minimum train size being four-cars and surely eight-cars are possible on some routes.
All of these services will bring passengers to and from Platforms 13 /14 at Piccadilly.
Manchester’s New Urban Link
Across the South Bank of London most people take the Jubilee Line!
But I don’t!
Between say London Bridge and Charing Cross, I will use Southeastern’s 14 tph service between the two stations, as it’s quicker, the views are better and there’s less walking in tunnels underground.
And according to some of their Customer Service people, I’m not the only one.
Manchester will also be getting a new similar high capacity urban link from Manchester Piccadilly station across the city, that will serve.
- Manchester Oxford Road
- Deansgate
Before splitting into two branches.
- Salford Crescent via the Windsor Link
- Salford Central and Manchester Victoria via the new Ordsall Chord
As there is also a line that joins Salford Crescent to Manchester Victoria via Salford Crescent, train planners will have a lot of scope for improving services.
- Liverpool and Manchester services have a choice of Manchester terminals and a variety of routes.
- A service linking Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport would be possible. Current services go via the West Coast Main Line.
- Inwards to Manchester, an improved Salford Crescent station could be a cross-platform interchange with Salford Central/Victoria services on one platform face and Deansgate/Oxford Road/Piccadilly/Airport services on the other.
- Similarly, outwards from Manchester, Salford Crescent station could be a cross platform interchange between services.
I think that this could lead to the Metrolink being connected to one or both of the two Salford stations.
To sum everything up, there will be lots of trains going through the three stations of Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly and Salford Crescent.
And all those trains using the Windsor Link and the Ordsall Chord will be coming through Platform 13 or Platform 14 at Manchester Piccadlly station.
Overcrowding At Platform 13 and 14 At Manchester Piccadilly Station
Overcrowding at these two platforms is bad enough already and it’s going to get worse if more and longer trains are running through the platforms.
Looking at the picture, the platforms are not overly-wide either.
But at least there are solutions, as I’ll discuss now.
The Alternative Route
Londoners are world-champions at ducking-and diving and will find the route that is quickest after a few weeks of a new rail line or bus route opening. It’s probably one of the reasons that Transport for London, placed the forecast for the passenger usage on the London Overground on the low side.
I don’t know how Mancunians will react to the Ordsall Chord and the new Northern Electrics services, but if they quickly suss-out the best route for their personal journey, this may mean that passengers avoid using Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly.
There are a quite a few interchange stations on the Piccadilly-Salford Crescent and Piccadilly-Victoria routes through the City.
Better Access To The Island Platform 13/14
Access to the island platform is not good and perhaps more escalators and lifts will help.
Whatever is done to improve the through route, improvement of the access will be on the list of projects to perform.
A Bigger Island Platform 13/14
Looking at the picture in this post, I wonder if the island platform could be made bigger.
If it was wider, this would need the tracks to be moved apart and if this is possible another metre on the platform width would help.
I was on Platform A at St. Pancras Thameslink station this morning and it is very long platform, with the trains stopping vaguely in the middle, thus leaving spare platform space at each end.
So if the platform could be lengthened would this help with the overcrowding?
This Google Map shows the Western end of Platform 13/14.
Platform 13/14 is the pointy one in the middle.
And this one the Eastern end.
Again Platform 13/14 is the one in the middle.
It’s all very tight and I estimate Platform 13/14 isn’t much more then ten metres wide at any point.
Access to Platforms 13/14 From Below
I don’t know whether this is possible, but the platforms sit on a large viaduct and in many stations like this escalators and lifts are used to access the platforms from below.
This picture shows the Platforms on the viaduct.
Platform 14 is closest to the camera.
I think that with imagination, access might be possible from this side.
A New Bridge To Platforms 13/14
This Google Map shows the London end of the platforms at Piccadilly.
Platform 13/14 is at the bottom of the picture.
I think there is space to put a second bridge over the platforms here and it could reach all the way to the new HS2 platforms on the other side of the station.
Platforms 15 And 16 At Manchester Piccadilly Station
Building two new platforms 15 and 16 has been touted as a solution.
I think that the key to whether four through platforms is needed, is how many trains will be going through.
In a few years time the two track cross-London lines; Crossrail aqnd Thameslink will be handling 24 tph, with a third; the East London Line handling 20 tph.
Also at London Bridge, 54 tph in both directions are handled by nine platforms, which means that an average of 12 tph go through each platform.
If you look at the Y-shaped line through Manchester, Thameslink could be overlaid on the top.
- Blackfriars would be Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly.
- St. Pancras Thameslink would be Deansgate.
- West Hampstead Thameslink would be Salford Crescent.
- Finsbury Park would be Victoria.
Other conditions would be needed for a throughput approaching that of Thameslink.
- All trains must be modern electric trains, capable of making quick stops.
- All trains must be fitted with modern signalling.
- No trains terminating at Manchester Oxford Road
- Some services from the North linked back-to-back with services to the South to free up platform space at Victoria and Piccadilly.
Thameslink is aiming for 24 tph and currently runs 14 tph.
I can’t see, if everything is done correctly, that Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly can’t handle somewhere between 14-24 tph.
And as Thameslink manages 14 tph with a proportion of Class 319 trains, I would be very surprised if this figure is not attainable.
Under Proposal in the Wikipedia entry for the Ordsall Chord, this is said.
The Ordsall Chord will provide a direct link between Piccadilly and Victoria stations, allowing trains from Manchester Victoria and the east to continue to Piccadilly. On completion the chord will allow four trains per hour to travel between Manchester Airport/Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Victoria in each direction, eight trains per hour from Manchester Victoria towards the west via Chat Moss, and six trains per hour from Manchester Piccadilly towards either Chat Moss or Bolton and Preston. Other trains will travel from Manchester Piccadilly via Warrington.
This appears to say that only the following trains would use Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly.
- 4 tph Manchester Airport/Piccadilly to Victoria
- 6 tph Piccadilly to Chat Moss or Bolton/Preston
So that is just 10 tph.
Currently, in the Peak, it appears that the frequency of trains between Oxford Road and Piccadilly is 10 tph.
I have a feeling that with a bit of reorganisation of services, the rather difficut problem of building Platforms 15/16 can be delayed for ten years or more, if not for ever.
Manchester Airport From The South
How would people from Birmingham, London and the South get to Manchester Airport?
There are two routes.
- Change at Manchester Picaadilly to any of the several tph to Manchester Airport
- Change at Crewe to the Crewe-Manchester Line.
I would use the second option as it’s fifteen minutes quicker and avoids Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly.
I suspect that the train companies will reorganise their services from Crewe to Manchester via the Airport to take advantage of the Ordsall curve and the new electrification North of Manchester.
HS2 Arrives At Crewe
HS2 will have various effects, when it arrives at Crewe in 2027!
One interesting idea, borrowed from the French, would be to split and join, shorter HS2 trains at Crewe. So perhaps two or even three shorter units would work as a larger unit between London and Crewe.
The advantage of this is that anywhere that is electrified and has a platform long enough could get a high-speed service to London and the South, if the market was there.
According to this page in the Guardian, Crewe will be just 58 minutes from London, instead of the fastest time of 97 minutes today.
Currently Crewe to Manchester Airport takes thirty minutes in a Class 323 train. If as I suspect HS2 trains can run efficiently on classic lines, the following times might be possible using the 110 mph Crewe-Manchester Line to complete the journey.
- Manchester Piccadilly – 88 minutes instead of the current 127 minutes.
- Manchester Airport – possibly 78 minutes instead of 144 minutes.
- Stockport – 76 minutes instead of 115 minutes
No services would need any changes.
But a train might leave London, do a quick stop at Crewe, where it divided with one portion going to Manchester Airport and the other to Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.
The operator would be able to run short HS2 trains on the classic lines to the North and East of Manchester using the lines now being electrified.
Currently, Huddersfield to Manchester Piccadilly takes 33 minutes, so a modern electric train must be able to do the journey in 20 minutes.
On my estimate of 88 minutes to Piccadilly using HS2, on the electrified existing tracks Huddersfield could be reached without a change in 108 minutes.
The current fastest time is 175 minutes with a change at York.
Running HS2 trains through platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly would have no effect on the design of the platforms, as the HS2 trains will be designed to run to any electrified platform, that is long enough.
The interesting destination of a portion of a train would be Blackburn, if the electrification was extended to the town.
I estimate it could be done in 133 minutes without a change as opposed to 162 minutes today with a change at Preston.
Until 1964, the Ribble Valley Line used to host a Manchester-Glasgow express and now I believe it could have a HS2 service to and from London.
Conclusion
Manchester and its environs will get a much better rail system.
But I suspect it will be some years before Piccadilly gets Platforms 15/16
The Anonymous Widower 