Tram-Trains At Manchester Victoria Station
In Could A Class 399 Tram-Train With Batteries Go Between Manchester Victoria And Rochdale/Bury Bolton Street/Rawtenstall Stations?, I speculated on how tram-trains from Rochdale, Bury Bolton Street and Rawtenstall stations might join the Manchester Metro Link at Manchester Victoria station.
I showed this Google Map of the lines at Manchester Victoria.
On my weekend trip to the North, I took these pictures yesterday from the Metrolink platforms at Manchester Victoria.
I can’t believe that it would be the most difficult track design project to allow tram-trains to swap between the rail and tram networks at this point.
The bigger problem, is probably to decide, where the tram-trains would go on the other side of Manchester.
On the other hand, they could use electrified rail lines to Bolton or Wigan North Western.
- The performance and capacity of a Class 399 tram-train is very comparable to a Pacer.
- Wigan North Western station has three South-facing bay platforms.
Manchester’s Metrolink designers are going to have a lot of fun.
Could A Class 399 Tram-Train With Batteries Go Between Manchester Victoria And Rochdale/Bury Bolton Street/Rawtenstall Stations?
In Rossendale Reopening Prospect, I looked at a proposal to run a new service between Manchester Victoria and Bury Bolton Street stations.
Could this route be run by a Class 399 tram-train with a battery capability?
These tram-trains would be very similar to the Stadler Citylink Metro Vehicles, that have been specified for the South Wales Metro.
- Wikipedia gives the weight of the vehicle as 66 tonnes.
- Manchester Victoria has an altitude of 44 metres
- Bury has an altitude of 100 metres.
- Rochdale has an altitude of 137 metres.
- Rawtenstall has an altitude of 174 metres.
- I will assume 200 passengers at 90 Kg. each, which gives a weight of 12 tonnes.
Using Omni’s Potential Energy Calculator gives the following.
- Manchester Victoria to Bury Bolton Street has an increase in potential energy of 12 kWh.
- Manchester Victoria to Rochdale has an increase in potential energy of 20 kWh.
- Manchester Victoria to Rawtenstall has an increase in potential energy of 28 kWh.
When you consider that a Class 230 train has 400 kWh of batteries in a two-car train, I don’t think that there will be any problem fitting batteries big enough to take a Class 399 tram-train from Manchester Victoria to Bury Bolton Street, Rochdale or Rawstenstall stations under battery power with a full load of passengers.
- The batteries would be charged in Manchester Victoria station.
- Returning to Manchester Victoria station would use a small amount of battery power, with some assistance from Newton’s friend; gravity.
- The batteries would get a certain amount of charge from the regenerative braking of the tram-trains.
This Google Map shows the Eastern approaches into Manchester Victoria station.
Note.
- The four through platforms numbered 3 to 6.
- The two bay platforms numbered 1 and 2.
- The four platform faces and three tracks of the Metrolink.
Having seen several tram-train systems all over Europe, I believe it would be possible to connect tram-trains running on batteries on the Calder Valley Line to the Manchester Metrolink at Manchester Victoria station.
- Going from Manchester to Bury Bolton Street, Rochdale or Rawtenstall, the tram-train would stop in the Manchester Victoria tram-stop, drop the pantograph and then continue on its way under battery power.
- Returning from the North, the tram-train would stop in the Manchester Victoria tram-stop, raise the pantograph and then continue on its way using power from the overhead wires.
- Batteries would be charged whilst running through Manchester.
There couldn’t be too many tram-train systems that would be easier to build than this?
It is interesting to note that Hebden Bridge station is just twenty-three miles from Manchester Victoria station and has an altitude of 190 metres.
So would it be possible for a Class 399 tram-train to reach Hebden Bridge station on battery power? I very much think it would be!
Class 399 Tram-Trains And Class 156 Trains
Class 156 trains are one of the better workhorses of the railways in the North and despite their age, they scrub up well.
If their performance is compared to that of a Class 399 tram-train, they are not that different.
- Noise and vibration of the electric tram-train is obviously much lower.
- The modern interior of the tram-train is geared to the needs of passengers.
- Passenger capacity of the two vehicles is also about the same.
- In Karlsruhe, tram-trains travel for up to 100 miles from the centre of the city.
Both Karlsruhe and Sheffield use three-car tram-trains, but Valencia uses much longer ones, so on heavily-used routes larger tram-trains could be used.
I doubt there would be many complaints, if a Class 156 service were to be replaced with one run by Class 399 tram-trains.
Electrification Of The Calder Valley Line
Electrifying the Calder Valley Line with 25 KVAC overhead wires as far as Rochdale station, would certainly make running to Hebden Bridge station possible.
- That electrification would also mean that electric trains could be turned-back at Rochdale station, just as diesel trains are now!
- I have flown my helicopter along the route and it looks like of the seven or eight bridges on the route, mostly appear to be modern structures for new roads or motorways.
- As 25 KVAC overhead electrification is currently being erected between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge, a spur to Rochdale would be very much a simple addition.
It could be a very useful short length of electrification.
Tram-Trains In Manchester
This article on Rail Technology Magazine was puiblished yesterday and is entitled Plans For Tram-Trains In Manchester Unveiled As Grayling And Burnham Mull Expansion Of Metrolink.
Conclusion
Could we see tram-trains running from Bury Bolton Street, Hebden Bridge, Rawtenstall and Rochdale into Manchester Victoria and then taking to the existing tram network?
If you’ve ever been to Karlsruhe, as I have to see the Class 399 tram-trains German cousins, you wouldn’t rule out anything.
That would include tram-train services to Blackburn, Buxton, Chester, Glossop, Hebden Bridge, Sheffield, Southport and Wigan.
Rossendale Reopening Prospect
The title of this post is the same as that of an article in the February 2019 Edition of Modern Railways.
This is the opening two paragraphs.
A blend of heritage and commuter operations could be on the cards in Lancashire, if Rossendale Council’s plans proceed.
The borough is the only one in Lancashire without a main line rail service. A report commissioned by the council in partnership with Lancashire County Council suggests co-operating with the heritage East Lancashire Railway, which runs from Heywood to Rawstenstall, to introduce such a rail link for the borough.
Yesterday, I had a comment read out on the BBC, as I discussed in Wake Up To Money – New Stations.
Wake Up To Money yesterday was broadcast from Darwen, which is only a valley away from Rossendale.
- One of the complaints on the program was about crowded roads and bad transport links to Manchester and Manchester Airport.
- It looks to me, that the proposed Rossendale services will fulfil a similar need.
- The main objective appears to be to create good links to Manchester and Manchester Airport, with a secondary objective of creating a link across the Pennines to Leeds with a change at Rochdale.
The article gives more details of the proposal.
Track
The plan envisages reinstating the route between Rawtenstall and Castleton Junction on the Calder Valley Line.
The section between Rawtenstall and Heywood stations, via Bury Bolton Street station is the heritage line of the East Lancashire Railway (ELR). It is best described as predominately single-track with passing loops.
The article says this about improving the track.
The section of the ELR from Bury Bolton Street to Heywood is envisaged as returning to Network Rail control but with the ELR having access. To facilitate timetabling of trains along the stretch, some double-tracking is expected to be required, although this is suggested to be a modest investment compared to most reopening schemes. Having the ELR on board as a co-operative partner is seen as key to the scheme’s success.
Having flown my virtual helicopter along the line, it looks to me, that it could become another scenic route out of Manchester.
Castleton Junction
This Google Map shows Castleton Junction, where the East Lancashire Line meets the Calder Valley Line.
Note.
- The Calder Valley Line runs North-South.
- The ELR goes off to the West.
- Castleton station is in the North-East corner of the map.
What was or is the large site to the North-West of the junction?
The Junction will need to be upgraded and resignalled.
Electrification
It would be very unlikely, that the route will be electrified.
Although, I suppose there is a chance, that the Calder Valley Line might be electrified, to create an electrified route between Leeds and Manchester Victoria.
- If this were to happen, then there would be electrification between Manchester Victoria and Rochdale.
- Castleton Junction, where the new route would join the Calder Valley Line would be electrified.
This would make it easier and more likely for battery-electric trains to work the new route.
Possible Routes
Three routes are suggesting in the article.
- Manchester Victoria and Bury Bolton Street
- Bury Bolton Street and Rochdale
- Bury Bolton Street and Rawtenstall – Peak-Hour shuttle.
It is suggested that the third route would be run by the ELR.
Rolling Stock
The article says this about rolling stock.
In terms of rolling stock, a suggested option is the use of Vivarail Class 230 units, operating under either diesel-electric or battery power. These could be used for ELR shuttle services in addition to or instead of existing heritage stock, as well as for services from Bury to Manchester.
The Class 230 trains are an obvious choice, but I think that other trains could also be suitable.
These are my thoughts.
Class 230 Trains
I described a ride in a Class 230 train in Battery Class 230 Train Demonstration At Bo’ness And Kinneil Railway.
The Class 230 train would have these characteristics.
- The three-car train has a useful capacity of around 300 passengers.
- The range on battery power should enable a service between Bury Bolton Road and Manchester Victoria stations.
- The batteries can be charged in under ten minutes.
- The operating speed is 60 mph.
- The trains have been designed to be easy to service and this can be done on a remote basis.
- The trains are of an age, to fit in well on a heritage railway.
- I suspect the average competent heritage railway could do the servicing.
The trains also have the advantage of large windows for looking at the scenery.
The trains would need to be charged at the end of the route and I suspect that Vivarail’s fast charging system would handle this in the terminal stations.
Class 769 Trains
Class 769 trains are electro-diesel trains, that use their diesel engines, where there is no 25 KVAC overhead electrification.
They are four-car trains with a passenger capacity of over 300 passengers.
They would have a very big advantage for the train operator.
Services across Manchester are often paired to give travellers the chance to do cross-city journeys without changing trains.
Using Class 769 trains would enable more services to be paired up.
Class 399 Tram-Trains
Class 399 tram-trains are under trial in Sheffield and they will also be used on the South Wales Metro.
The terrain in Rossendale involves a hundred metre or so climb from Bury Bolton Street to Rawtenstall. Rochdale is perhaps fifty metres higher than Bury Bolton Street.
Consider a Class 399 tram/train, working between Bury Bolton Street and Rawtenstall stsations.
- Wikipedia gives the weight of the vehicle as 66 tonnes.
- The altitude difference is 120 metres.
- I will assume 200 passengers at 90 Kg. each, which gives a weight of 12 tonnes.
This means that the train has a increase of potential energy of 25 kWh at Rawtenstall station. This would be easily stored in an appropriately-sized traction battery.
It would appear that tram-trains should be able to climb to Rawtenstall, provided they could get to Bury with a full battery.
I look at this in detail in Could A Class 399 Tram-Train With Batteries Go Between Manchester Victoria And Rochdale/Bury Bolton Street/Rawtenstall Stations?
Alstom Breeze Trains
Alston Breeze trains could be a possibility, if hydrogen trains are compatible with steam trains.
The trains would also be able to work across Manchester, as the Class 769 trains will be able to.
Battery-Electric Multiple Units
In Northern’s Battery Plans, I discuss CAF’s proposal to Northern to create battery-electric Class 331 trains.
These could be ideal.
Diesel Multiple Units
Northern have lots of better quality diesel multiple units including Class 156 and Class 170 trains. The company also has around sixty new Class 195 diesel multiple units on order.
These could obviously handle the route, but would it be better to use battery or more capable bi-mode trains on the route?
Diesel Use In Manchester
I suspect too, that train companies, their staff, passengers and all Mancunians would like to see Central Manchester’s railways become a diesel-free zone.
Train Timings
I obviously don’t have accurate figures, but I have a feeling that most of these trains could do a round trip in an hour between Manchester Victoria and Bury Bolton Street stations. The Class 230 trains would probably have time for a fast charge at each end of the route.
My Choice Of Train
It will be Class 230 or Class 769 trains.
Both trains could work the services to Bury Bolton Street station from Manchester Victoria and Rochdale stations.
The Class 769 has two advantages.
- It is the larger train.
- It could use its electric capability to cross Manchester.
Both trains wouldn’t look out of place running a shuttle between Bury Bolton Street and Rawtenstall stations, as they are rebuilt trains from a previous era.
Stations
A few points about the existing stations.
Bury Bolton Street Station
Bury Bolton Street station has four platforms and will be the interchange between the new services and those of the ELR.
The station has a bay platform that faces South East.
With modern signalling, I would expect that it could handle four trains per hour (tph).
Perhaps, these could be two tph from both Manchester Victoria and Rochdale stations.
Heywood Station
This Google Map shows Heywood station.
At present it has a long single curved platform.
I suspect to accommodate the new services, which could be four tph in both directions, the station would need a second platform.
Ramsbottom Station
This Google Map shows Ramsbottom station.
It is a two platform station, which appears to be close to the Town Centre and a Tesco Superstore and a Morrison’s.
Rawtenstall Station
This Google Map shows Rawtenstall station.
Note, the train in the single platform with a run round loop for a locomotive.
The article says it would be possible to create a second platform at the station.
It would appear that if Class 230 trains were to be used for the proposed.Peak Hour service to Rawtenstall station, then there would be space for installing a fast charger.
Rochdale Station
Rochdale station will be a terminus for services from Bury Bolton Street station.
This paragraph in the Wikipedia entry for Rochdale station describes the new bay platform at the station and how it is used.
In 2015, construction on a fourth railway platform began. It is located at the south end of the main island platform, with the southbound through line having been re-aligned slightly further east to accommodate the new terminating line.
This section of the Calder Valley Line appears to be very busy with a train every four minutes.
I wonder, if by diverting some services to Bury Bolton Street station, this helps ease traffic on the Calder Valley Line.
Could trains do the following triangular route?
- Manchester Victoria
- Heywood
- Bury Bolton Street
- Heywood
- Rochdale
- Manchester Victoria
Train timetablers with much more knowledge than myself, will have fun getting a workable timetable.
New Stations
About half-a-dozen new stations will need to be built.
Most will probably be fairly simple affairs and those North of Bury Bolton Street station could probably by just a single platform.
There is one possibly proposed station, that could be more complicated.
Buckley Wells station could be built where the Bury Line of the Manchester Metrolink and the East Lancashire Line cross by the A56.
Park-and-Ride stations are also suggested in the article at Broadfield, Ewood Bridge, Heap Bridge and Stubbins.
Freight
The article also raises the possibility of running freight trains between the Calder Valley Line and Heywood.
This is said.
,The line could incorporate a rail connection to the 200-acre Heywood Distribution Park, currently served only by road, but adjacent to the existing ELR line. An intermodal rail freight terminal could be provided in the land around the existing distribution park, with sidings at least 500 metres in length needed to accommodate modern freight trains. Conversion into a Strategic Freight Interchange would remove significant numbers of HGVs from the congested strategic road network.
Would the implementation of this plan for freight be popular with the residents of Rossendale?
Conclusion
The proposal is a comprehensive one, which could benefit several groups.
- The residents of Rossendale.
- Vsitors to the area
- Commuters to Manchester
- Travellers across the Pennines
- Travellers to Manchester Airport
- Freight companies.
The proposal needs further investigation to see whether there is a strong business case for implementation.
I also think, that this sort of project model, where a heritage line is integrated with the National Rail network, can be repeated elsewhere in the country.
We have some very well-managed heritage railways in the UK, some of which could be extended to the National Rail network to provide much needed passenger and freight services to new and existing developments and difficult to access towns.
The rules need to be developed, so that these projects can be developed.
Wires, New Platforms And Sidings At Blackpool North Station – 17th April 2018
I took these pictures as I entered Blackpool station.
Note.
- There are now six straight platforms at the station.
- The platforms are long and can probably take an eleven-car Class 390 train.
- There seems to be five or six long sidings for trains, just outside the station.
- There is certainly evidence of ongoing work.
They certainly seem to be expecting a lot of trains.
If not soon, the station is future proofed.
What Trains Will Run To Blackpool?
I think the routes from Blackpool should have a minimum frequency of at least two tph.So the base local service should be.
- Two tph – Blackpool North to Liverpool Lime Street Class 319 train
- Two tph – Blackpool North to Manchester Airport – Class 319 train
- Two tph – Blackpool South nto Colne – Class 769 train
Other routes could include these services.
- 1-2 tph – Blackpool North to York via Leeds
- 1-2 tph – Blackpool North to Hazel Grove via Manchester Piccadilly – Class 319 train
- 1-2 tph – Blackpool North to Huddersfield via Manchester Victoria.
- 1-2 tph – Blackpool North to Ormskirk via Preston – Class 769 trains.
I wrote about the last service in Northern’s Plans For Between Preston And Ormskirk. But as Blackpool North station has six terminal platforms, it might be a better terminus than Preston.
Even if all of these services were to be two tph, this would only be fourteen tph between Preston and Kirkham and Wesham stations.
But the signalling is now modern and Northern have ordered a lot of 100 mph trains.
Obviously, Network Rail have got to finish the electrification.
More Train Services Between Leeds, Huddersfield And Manchester
This article on the Huddersfield Daily Examiner is entitled Important Timetable Changes For Huddersfield Rail Passengers Heading To Manchester.
It is a good explanation of the major changes that will take place to TransPennine Express services after the 20th of May.
- There will be four fast trains between Leeds, Huddersfield and Manchester Victoria station
- There will be two slow trains between Leeds, Huddersfield and Manchester Piccadilly station
- But nothing is said about Northern services.
I suspect, it will be sorted by the time the service starts.
I would check before you travel.
Hopefully, if you want to go to Piccadilly and get on a train that only goes to Victoria, it will be a same platform interchange to continue, your journey if your ticket is marked Manchester Stastions.
I would assume that you won’t be able to touch in with a contactless card on this short journey as is becoming the norm in a lot of the World.
Ticketing in the North is so Nineteenth Century.
A Double Crossing Of The Ordsall Chord
I caught the first morning train from Manchester Victoria station across the Ordsall Chord to Manchester Oxford station, where after buying hot chocolate, I took the same diesel multiple unit back to Hebden Bridge station.
A few points about the Ordsall Cord and its effects.
Mancunians Have Been Quick To Use The Chord To Their Advantage
It was only the second weekday of this Ordsall Chord service, but what surprised me was that quite a few of the early travellers went to the extra two added stations on the service.
This bodes well for the future in that when Piccadilly and the Airport are added, the passengers will surely travel.
Manchester Victoria Is An Inadequate Station For The Number Of Passengers
The station may have improved in recent years, since the new roof, better tram access and more retail facilities have been added, but it is still a rather poor station for passengers to walk around, compared to others with similar amounts of trains.
I took this picture as the train before mine unloaded passengers at Victoria station.
It is the typical scrum that you get at busy stations in the North.
The Ordsall Chord will affect Victoria in the following ways.
- There will be more trains passing through. This will increase the number of passengers entering and leaving the station.
- Passengers will change trains but not platforms at Victoria. This will mean that passengers will regularly wait for 15-30 minutes on the platform.
- Ideally services like Liverpool to Leeds and Newcastle, should have same or cross platform interchange with local services using the Ordsall Chord.
So what needs to be addressed?
Platforms
The Ordsall Chord is currently served by Plstforms 5 and 6.
These platforms are totally inadequate for the extra numbers of passengers and especially the extra passengers, who will wait on the platform, whilst changing trains.
- A coffee kiosk is needed on both Ordsall platforms.
- The platforms are not wide enough.
- There are not enough seats.
Both platforms are used to terminate services, which is totally against the philosophy of the Ordsall Chord. This must and hopefully will stop.
Ideally, Ordsall Chord services and important cross-Manchester services should have a platform layout, that means as many changes as possible are level.
Take the case of the elderly passenger with their presents in a bulky case going from say Liverpool to perhaps Rochdale for Christmas. They will not want to negotiate the bridge at Victoria, even by lift to change trains. And neither will staff.
But a cross or same platform interchange would be ideal for everyone.
The layout would all depend on how many services are going through the station..
Currently, the station has the following services.
- Five tph terminating at the station going West
- Six tph terminating at the station going East
- Three tph cross-Manchester services stopping at the station.
If these services could be simplified by joining East and West services back-to-back, we are looking at perhaps ten tph.
As there are many stations in London that handle fourteen to sixteen tph on two platforms, the following would surely be possible.
- Use one platform for all Westbound cross-Manchester and Ordsall Chord services.
- Use one platform for all Eastbound cross-Manchester and Ordsall Chord services.
Platform 5 and 6 would not be ideal for this, as the services should be on either side of a wide island platform, to allow passengers to reverse direction without changing level.
Lighting
I know it was early in the morning, but the picture shows how dark and dingy the station still is. Surely, just on the grounds of Health and Safety, the lighting levels must be improved.
The Overbridge
Surely, if the rebuilt Reading and Leeds stations can have escalators for their overbridges, then the equally important. but smaller Manchester Victoria, should have some on the busy overbridge.
The Interchange Between Tram And Train At Deansgate
Did people get off the train at Deansgate station to use the Metrolink?
Changing from train to tram at Victoria, involves a fight through crowds to get up the stairs to the bridge and then another another set of stairs to get to the Metrolink.
But at Deansgate station coming from Victoria, it is just a level walk across to the major Deansgate-Castlefield Metrolink interchange.
It would appear that 2015 redevelopment of the tram stop and its link to the station were designed for the extra passengers, that the Ordsall Chord will surely bring.
Deansgate-Castlefield with its three platforms, also has a comprehensive list of services.
- 5 trams per hour to Altrincham
- 5 trams per hour to Ashton-under-Lyne
- 5 trams per hour to East Didsbury
- 5 trams per hour to Eccles via MediaCityUK
- 5 trams per hour to Etihad Campus
- 5 trams per hour to Manchester Airport
- 5 trams per hour to Rochdale Town Centre
Avoiding Piccadilly
Manchester Piccadilly station is one of my least favourite stations in the UK for using the trains.
- I always travel to and from Manchester in Standard Class, to avoid the crowded walk up and down the platform at Piccadilly.
- I know there’s a bridge at the London end of the train, but it is not directly connected to the Metrolink underneath.
- Buying a ticket for the Metrolink is a tiresome business, when I should just be able to touch in and out with my bank card.
- The forecourt of the station is always crowded.
- Only the above average food offerings for a coeliac give me any cheer.
Hopefully, when the services across the Ordsall Chord are fully developed, a lot of places I want to go will be available by changing trains at Crewe or Stockport.
Manchester’s Third City Crossing
In some ways the nearest London has to the Ordsall Chord is the railway across the South Bank connecting London Bridge, Blackfriars, Waterloo East and Charing Cross stations, which carries in excess of twelve tph. It appears to me and staff I have talked to, that passengers are using this route between Westminster and London Bridge, instead of the Jubilee Line. Especially, if they have bicycles!
Will Mancunians use the frequent service on the Ordsall Chord across the city, as a Third City Crossing?
Platforms At Salford Central Station
I hope the planned extra platforms at Salford Central station are built in the near future, as this would surely increase the use of the Ordsall Chord
Tickets To Manchester Stations
My ticket to Manchester from Euston was to Manchester Stns, which means i can get out at Deansgate, Oxford Road, Piccadilly or Victoria.
Surely, it should include Salford Central station.
Platforms At
There’s Still A Few Snags
In my trip, I went across the Orsall Chord four times.
Each time, the train waited a minute or so before proceeding over the bridge. Were there signalling issues, the trains were not quite to time or were the drivers just being cautious.
Conclusion
Now that the difficult phase is complete, it will be interesting to see how the swervices build up.
Trains Are Timetabled Between Leeds And Manchester Oxford Road Station This Week
I have been looking at the National Rail timetables and it appears that certainly on Monday and possibly tomorrow, trains are timetabled to run between Leeds and Manchester Oxford Road stations, stopping at Manchester Victoria station.
This means that weather permitting, the Ordsall Chord is expected to be open. Weather permitting of course!
It’s now Sunday morning and according to the National Rail train departures system, the 08:57 train from Manchester Oxford Road to Leeds is ready to rumble.
The article in The Independent is entitled Six Minute Rail Link Promises To Transform North West Train Services.
It gives this precise explanation of what the Ordsall Chord is all about.
Network Rail, which has created the £85m link, says: “Congestion currently seen at Manchester Piccadilly will reduce by a quarter with some services being rerouted through Manchester Victoria.
“There will be more capacity on the railway, meaning more frequent trains to run.”
By connecting Victoria and Oxford Road stations for the first time, the Ordsall Chord will provide a link from Leeds to Manchester airport which does not require trains to reverse, and free up space by reducing the number of services terminating at Victoria.
I would assume that this short length of railway, has been built so that it can handle a high frequency of trains across the City. So if it has been traditionally signalled like the East London Line of the Overground train frequencies of upwards of twelve trains per hour (tph) will certainly be possible.
But modern signalling using ERTMS, will give this route a frequency up there with Crossrail and Thameslink of twenty-four tph.
Manchester’s Crossrail
Manchester has got its Crossrail, a year before London.
I don’t think Manchester knows what is going to hit the City!
A lot of local services at Manchester Victoria are arranged so that they run back-to-back connecting pl;aces like Blackburn, Kirkby, Southport, Stalybridge, Todmorden and Wigan.
Now services will run back-to-back through the core of Victoria, Salford Central, Deansgate, Oxford Road, Piccadilly and the Airport.
- Manchester has gained a Third City Crossing!
- It needs a frequency of at least twelve tph or one train every five minutes.
On the section between Deansgate and Piccadilly, there will be even more trains.
- Piccadilly to Liverpool Lime Street and Warrington services
- Piccadilly to Blackpool, Bolton, Preston and Southport services via Salford Central and the Windsor Link Line.
Summing this spaghetti up, you get destinations to the North of the Irwell.
- Barrow/Lancaster/Windermere
- Blackburn
- Blackpool *
- Bolton *
- Clitheroe
- Glasgow/Edinburgh *
- Halifax
- Kirkby
- Leeds
- Liverpool *
- Preston *
- Rochdale
- Southport
- Stalybridge *
- Warrington
And these to the South
- Buxton
- Crewe *
- Glossop/Hadfield *
- Hazel Grove *
- Manchester Airport *
- Stockport *
Note.
- The stations marked with asterisks (*) will be fully electrified by the end of 2018.
- Piccadilly is not included in the list of stations South of the Irwell, as it is not a station, where trains can be reversed to go North.
- Oxford Road can be used to reverse trains and it is significant the the first Ordsall Chord services are between Oxford Road and Leeds.
There is a lot of scope for back-to-back services across the Irwell using the current Class 319 trains, that work Liverpool to Manchester, Preston and Wigan services.
Thinking about what Manchester has now got, it’s more like Thameslink than Crossrail, as it has a lot of branches on both sides of the Irwell.
So perhaps it should be called IrwellLink?
The Arrival Of the Class 769 Trains
Northern have another train up their sleeve! Or should I say, under construction in Loughborough?
At least eleven of the Class 769 bi-mode train are coming!
On paper these trains seem a bizarre but simple idea! You take a nearly thirty-year-old British Rail Class 319 train and fit two diesel alternator sets underneath, so that it can generate its own electric power on lines without electrification.
But in practice, it appears Northern will be getting a train that can do the following.
- Bridge all the electrification gaps in the North-West of England.
- Work the very stiff Manchester to Buxton route.
- Do 100 mph under the wires and 90 mph on diesel.
- Meet all the regulations with respect to Persons of Reduced Mobility.
- Deputise for and augment Class 319 trains when required.
- Give a performance improvement over Pacers and Class 150 and Class 156 trains.
- Work into most stations, where Pacers and Class 150/156 trains currently work, without station upgrades.
All this comes in a strong Mark 3-based design, that drivers seem to like.
I think that Northern said a lot about their confidence in these trains, when they increased the order from eight to eleven, around the time serious testing started.
If more than eleven Class 769 trains are needed, there are a total of 86 Class 319 trains of which 32 are the Class 319/4 variant, which would be the preferred conversion, as they have a better interior.
Class 769 Train Routes
The Class 769 trains could work between Leeds and Oxford Road stations, as soon as they receive certification.
But surely, one of their main uses will be to link destinations on lines without electrification on either side of the electrified core lines in Manchester.
This map from Wikipedia shows the layout of the main lines and stations in Central Manchester.
Starting at the top and going anti-clockwise the stations are as follows on the lin, which is fully electrified.
- Manchester Victoria
- Salford Central
- Deansgate
- Manchester Oxford Road
- Manchester Piccadilly
The Ordsall Chord is shown in red.
Note that most of the lines radiating from the cross-city line can be joined to the others.
This leads to services such as.
- Buxton to Clitheroe via Piccadilly, Salford Cresent, Bolton and Blackburn
- Crewe to Blackburn via The Styal Line, Piccadilly, Victoria, Todmorden and Burnley.
- Southport to Manchester Airport.
- Sheffield to Liverpool via the Hope Valley Line, Stockport, Piccadilly and Warrington.
- Kirkby to Stalybridge
Feel free to add any route you feel convenient.
Add in a few extra platforms at perhaps the two Salford and Oxford Road stations and Manchester could have a rail network, that would be second-to-very-few.
There are also a lot of opportunities around Leeds and along the East Coast Main Line.
Blackburn To Manchester Every Thirty Minutes
That’s what it says on this poster, I photographeds at Blackburn station on Saturday.
Full words on the poster are.
Blackburn To Manchester
Every 30 minutes
Starts December 10
Mon-Sat 9.30am – 17.30pm
Both Directions
Certainly one young guy I spoke to, said it would change his travelling for the better.
Looking at the online timetable gives a few clues.
- The current Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe service continues.
- The current Manchester Victoria to Blackburn service via Todmorden continues.
- The second service in each hour uses the Bay Platform 3 at Blackburn.
- Some services seem to be Stalybridge to Blackburn via Manchester Victoria.
As Stalybridge to Preston and Blackpool via Bolton will be electrified soon, could it be that Northern are gearing up to have an electrified core route with diesel branches, that would be ideal for Class 769 trains.
Consider.
- Four-car Class 769 trains could replace pairs of Class 150 and Class 156 trains.
- The trains have a respectable top speed in both electric and diesel mode.
- The pantograph can be raised and lowered as appropriate.
- The trains have a Universal Access Toilet and meet all the Persons of Restricted Mobility Access rules.
- If more electrification is added, the trains will take advantage.
Could we see the upgrade between Manchester and Blackburn on December 10th, implemented using Class 769 trains?
News on the Class 769 trains has been very sparse lately.
According to a technical specification that I’ve seen, four of the Class 769 trains are planned to be in service by December 2017.
So is everything going to plan or has it all gone pear-shaped?
What trains turn up on December the 10th will be useful information!
Lord Adonis On Crossrail Of The North
There has been a lot of talk recently about HS3, Northern Powerhouse Rail or Crossrail Of The North.
On Radio 5 Live, this morning, Lord Adonis said a lot of sensible things about the high speed line from Liverpool to Hull via Manchester and Leeds.
His plea was for a plan for a start and he suggested that an objective would be to halve the journey time from Manchester to Leeds and have a train every few minutes.
He suggested it could be probably built using a mixture of new track alignments and existing railways.
I agree with what he said, but the problem is that every Tom, Dick and Harriet has their own ideas of what they want.
How Would I Design Crossrail Of The North?
I can at least look at this without favouring any one of the North’s great urban area.
Urban Areas Of The North
I will list those with populations of over 200,000,, from this list in Wikipedia.
- Manchester – 2,553,379
- West Yorkshire – 1,777,934
- Liverpool – 864,122
- Tyneside – 774,891
- Nottingham – 729,977
- Sheffield – 685,368
- Teeside – 376,633
- Stoke-on-Trent – 372,775
- Sunderland – 335,415
- Birkenhead – 325,264
- Hull – 314,018
- Preston – 313,322
- Blackpool – 239,409
- Barnsley – 223,281
Urban areas with populations between 100,000 and 200,000 include Wigan, Mansfield, Warrington, Doncaster, York, Burnley, Blackburn, Grimsby, Accrington, Burton, Lincoln and Chesterfield.
Some of the connections between pairs of these areas are truly dreadful despite being only fifty or so files apart.
Northern Connect
I would think it reasonable that all these centres of population have good, preferably direct, connections between them.
Northern obviously think this way as they are creating a concept called Northern Connect, using new Class 195 trains to connect many of these areas with a quality service.
The North TransPennine Routes
TransPennine operate these North Pennine routes.
- 1 train per hour (tph) – Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle
- 1 tph – Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
- 1 tph – Manchester Airport to York
- 1 tph – Liverpool Lime Street – Scarborough
- 1 tph – Manchester Piccadilly to Hull
Note that the opening of the Ordsal Chord iin a few months, might change the routing of some of these services.
All of these services use the Huddersfield Line between Manchester and Leeds, stopping at both Huddersfield and Leeds stations.
Manchester Victoria To Leeds
As Lord Adonis said, the important section is between Manchester Victoria and Leeds stations.
I’ll start with a comparison of a series of rail journeys, all of which are about the same length.
- The fastest trains between Manchester Victoria and Leeds take forty-nine minutes, with a stop at Huddersfield, and are just 1 tph
- Norwich to Ipswich in a couple of years, will take 30 minutes at a frequency of 3 tph.
- Glasgow to Edinburgh currently takes about fifty minutes, at a frequency of 4 tph.
- Cardiff to Swansea currently takes 52-54 minutes, at a frequency of 2 tph.
It does seem that the North has a point if two of East Anglia’s larger cities get a better service than Leeds and Manchester.
The Huddersfield Line And The Great Eastern Main Line Compared
It is also enlightening to compare the Manchester to Leeds Line via Huddersfield to Ipswich To Norwich section of the Great Eastern Main Line.
It should be noted that I’m comparing these two lines, as both have lived on scraps from Central Government for decades. I also know the Great Eastern Main Line well!
- Both lines are double-track.
- Norwich-Ipswich is flat.
- The Huddersfield Line is rather hilly
- Norwich-Ipswich has only two stations and only the occasional slower service.
- The Huddersfield Line has numerous stations and local services.
- Norwich-Ipswich is electrified to a robust standard.
- On the Huddersfield Line, only Manchester to Stalybridge is scheduled for electrification.
- Norwich-Ipswich has a 100 mph speed limit, that could possibly be raised in places.
- I can’t find the speed limit on the Huddersfield Line, but suspect it could be less than 100 mph.
It is truthful to say that the Huddersfield Line is a much more challenging route than the Norwich to Ipswich.
The Effect Of Electrification On The Great Eastern Main Line
It might appear that the electrification of the Great Eastern Main Line makes for the difference in times.
But it should also be remembered that Ipswich to Norwich wasn’t electrified until the mid 1980s and if I remember correctly before that date, the fastest expresses were timed at two hours from Norwich to London with just two stops. The fastest services now are ten minutes under two hours with four stops.
With the introduction of the new Class 745 trains, timings of ninety minutes have been promised to the Department for Transport.
Timings did not drop significantly with the electrification in the mid-1980s, Services just became more reliable with more stops, as electric trains can accelerate better.
The decrease in timings over the next few years will be down to the following.
- Removal of bottlenecks like Trowse Bridge.
- Increase in speed limits.
- Trains with a shorter dwell time at stations.
- Trains with better acceleration and braking.
- Improved track and signalling.
- All passenger trains on the line will have the same performance.
I will be very interested to see what timings, the Class 745 trains eventually achieve!
Electrifying Between Leeds And Manchester Victoria Stations
It looks like the electrification between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge stations will be complete by the end of this year.
The central section of the route is problematical with the Grade 1 Listed Huddersfield station and large numbers of bridges.
In TransPennine Electrification And Piccadilly Upgrade Now Also In Doubt, I came to these conclusions about electrifying the route.
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Electrification would not go anywhere near Huddersfield, as the heritage lobby and their lawyers would have a field day.
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Standedge and Morley tunnels are over 2,000 metres long, double track and Standedge is level. If they needed refurbishment in the future, perhaps they could be electrified with an overhead rail, so that bi-modes could have a couple of miles of electricity.
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Electrification might be extended at the Manchester and Leeds ends of the line, so that the two cities could improve their local suburban electric networks.
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An alternative would be that the Leeds and Manchester suburban electric networks were provided with a few Class 769 trains or even some brand new four-car bi-modes.
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Services between Leeds and Manchester would be run by fast bi-modes.
Is there a more difficult stretch of possible electrification in the UK?
The Ultimate Bi-Mode Train
Currently four bi-mode trains are planned for introduction into the UK.
- Hitachi Class 800 trains and Class 802 trains.
- Stadler Class 755 trains
- Porterbrook Class 769 trains
Note.
- Two hundred and eleven bi-mode trains have been ordered.
- Nineteen Class 802 trains have been ordered for TransPennine routes.
In Do Class 800/801/802 Trains Use Batteries For Regenerative Braking?, I look at the prospect of using energy storage in Hitachi’s bi-mode trains.
The Class 802 train is probably something like the ultimate bi-mode train.
- 125 mph using electrification.
- 100 mph under diesel power
- Regenerative braking at all times using energy storage.
- Automatic pantograph raising and lowering.
- Sophisticated in-cab signalling.
Obviously, interior fitment would be up to the operator.
Class 195 Trains
Northern is acquiring 25 x two-car and 30 x three-car Class 195 trains.
These are 100 mph trains, so it must be a good idea to make sure all Northern services that use the same routes as TransPennine services are run by these faster trains.
Short/Medium Term – A Classic Manchester Victoria To Leeds Route
TransPennine Express are already planning to run Class 802 trains between Liverpool and Newcastle via Manchester and Leeds. It looks to me, that whoever plans their train policy, saw the electrification crisis coming.
I wonder what times they can achieve between Leeds and Manchester Victoria, if the following were to be done.
- Stalybridge to Manchester Victoria electrification is complete.
- Track and signalling is the best it can be.
- The route has a 100 mph operating speed.
- All trains on the route are 100 mph capable.
- Northern replaces their scrapyard specials with Class 195 trains.
The reason for the same operating speed of 100 mph, enables trains to follow each other in a stream. It could be 90 mph, if that was easier for the route.
Station dwell times can also be reduced.
Due to overcrowding, the TransPennine dwell times, must currently be some of the worst in the UK.
This is typical at Huddersfield.
Not even the Japanese with their pushers could get this to work.
But a modern train like the Class 802 train with wide lobbies and adequate capacity should cope.
So what time could be possible, if everything goes as planned?
If Norwich to Ipswich which is about the same distance as Leeds to Manchester, can be achieved in thirty minutes, I believe it is possible that the Northern route could be achieved in the same time or perhaps thirty-five minutes.
Thirty-five minutes should be adequate for a few years, if say there was a train every ten minutes!
Long Term – A Genuine High Speed Manchester Victoria To Leeds Route
I’ve flown my virtual helicopter between Manchester and Leeds and it is not flat agricultural land like seventy percent of the route of HS2.
I believe that creating a genuine high speed route, with say a 140 mph top speed across the Pennines will be a major engineering challenge that will make Crossrail in London look easy.
It may even be more economic to develop 140 mph hydrogen-powered tilting trains, that can run on the classic route at 125 mph.
Only one thing matters to passengers; a fast reliable and very comfortable and affordable train service across the country.
Manchester Victoria To Manchester Airport
When the Ordsall Chord opens any Leeds to Manchester Victoria service can continue to Deansgate, Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport stations.
Manchester Victoria To Liverpool
Currently, services between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Victoria stations take a few minutes over half-an-hour.
I would suspect that thirty minutes is achievable, if the following is done.
- The four-tracking at Huyton is completed.
- Track and signalling is the best it can be.
- The route has a 100 mph operating speed.
- All trains on the route are 100 mph capable.
- Northern replaces their scrapyard specials with Class 195 trains.
I suspect all of this is in progress.
Note, this is very similar work, to that needed between Manchester and Leeds.
Leeds To Hull
Currently, services between Leeds and Hull stations take a few minutes under an hour.
A few thoughts on the route.
- The Selby Line from Leeds to Hull is double-track and not electrified.
- From my virtual helicopter, it appears to be straight in very flat country, so it is no wonder Hull Trains offered to electrify the line.
- If the Selby swing bridge were to be sorted, it could become a 100 mph line with trains to match.
- Northern replaces their scrapyard specials with Class 195 trains.
- Modern in-cab signalling.
I suspect quite a few minutes could be taken off this route which is about fifty miles.
I suspect this line will eventually be electrified, as it could give sound time savings and it looks relatively easy.
York To Scarborough
Currently, services between York and Scarborough stations take forty-nine minutes, with one tph.
- Similar improvements to the double-track unelectrified line as for the Leeds to Hull route, could be made.
- But if the line has a problem , it is that it has 89 level crossings, although Network Rail intends to close them all before 2025.
I wonder, if the time can be reduced between York and Scarborough, such that two tph can be timetabled.
I doubt York to Scarborough will be electrified.
Northallerton To Middlesbrough
This short line is quite heavily used and is a valuable diversion route, so I suspect nothing urgent needs to be done.
Like Leeds to Hull, I suspect this line will eventually be electrified.
Conclusions
I have come to the following conclusions.
- Manchester Victoria to Leeds is achievable in half-an-hour with the new trains on order and no major infrastructure, other than that already planned.
- Any line where TransPennine Express services run needs to have the highest possible operating speed and no slow trains.
- Northern need to get their Class 195 trains into service as soon as possible.
Improvements are much-needed in the North, which could include.
- A short/medium term plan to deliver the best possible service with the new trains ordered by Northern and TransPennine Express.
- A long term plan to deliver a genuine 140 mph service across the North of England.
- A plan to improve the Calder Valley and Hope Valley Lines across the Pennines.
- A plan to improve some of the poor connections across the North.
- A strategy to make the best use of connections with HS2.
A detailed plan is needed that lays down what should be done in the next ten to twenty years.
The plan is also needed as soon as possible.
Could Platform 13 And 14 At Manchester Piccadilly Station Be Improved?
I took this picture on the island platform 13 /14, at Manchester Piccadilly station on my trip to the North last week.
I actually took the picture, as I wanted to check if the lines were electrified, which can be seen.
Services Through Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly and Salford Crescent Stations
After the current works on the Ordsall Chord has been completed, Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly and Salford Crescent stations will form a triangle of lines and stations, through which services passing through Manchester will travel. This map from Wikipedia shows the lines in a simplified form.
Note the lines to Leeds, Bolton, Liverpool, Warrington, Stockport. It is a real Crossrails of the North.
The only similar intensive set of railway junctions in a city with multiple terminal stations is be the tangle of lines across the South Bank of the Thames in London encompassing London Bridge, Cannon Street, Blackfriars, Waterloo East and Charing Cross stations. This map from Wikipedia shows the lines in a simplified form.
Simple it is not!
As an aside it should be noted that Thameslink is planned to run twenty-four trains per hour (tph), through the central core tunnel, of which sixteen tph stop at both Blackfriars and London Bridge stations. Add in the 14 tph terminating at Charing Cross and the 16 tph terminating at Cannon Street, all of which stop at London Bridge and you get a measure of the capability of modern signalling.
Northern Electric Services To Manchester Airport
As I write this, Northern Electrics trains from Liverpool Lime Street, Edinburgh via Wigan North Western and Blackpool North via Bolton are all scheduled to call in Platforms 13 at Manchester Piccadilly station within the next hour on their way to Manchester Airport. Only the Liverpool service is run by an electric train, which is one of the 100 mph Class 319 trains.
But after the Manchester to Preston Line via Bolton and the Blackpool Branch Lines are electrified and the Ordsall Chord is opened, which will hopefully happen late in 2017, there could be more Northern |Electrics services through these platforms going to Manchester Airport from these and other stations.
- Barrow-in-Furness – Flex
- Blackpool North
- Bolton
- Blackburn – Flex
- Huddersfield – Flex
- Liverpool Lime Street
- Manchester Victoria
- Preston
- Stalybridge – Flex
- Warrington Central – Flex
- Windermere – Flex
Stations marked with Flex will be run by Class 319 Flex trains, but as they will be running on the overhead wires through these platforms to and from the Airport, they can be considered to be the same as the electric Class 319 trains.
If you look at the current service between Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Airport stations, the frequency is something like eight trains per hour.
So there will be a large number of electric trains going through Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly! And the trains will be getting longer, with the minimum train size being four-cars and surely eight-cars are possible on some routes.
All of these services will bring passengers to and from Platforms 13 /14 at Piccadilly.
Manchester’s New Urban Link
Across the South Bank of London most people take the Jubilee Line!
But I don’t!
Between say London Bridge and Charing Cross, I will use Southeastern’s 14 tph service between the two stations, as it’s quicker, the views are better and there’s less walking in tunnels underground.
And according to some of their Customer Service people, I’m not the only one.
Manchester will also be getting a new similar high capacity urban link from Manchester Piccadilly station across the city, that will serve.
- Manchester Oxford Road
- Deansgate
Before splitting into two branches.
- Salford Crescent via the Windsor Link
- Salford Central and Manchester Victoria via the new Ordsall Chord
As there is also a line that joins Salford Crescent to Manchester Victoria via Salford Crescent, train planners will have a lot of scope for improving services.
- Liverpool and Manchester services have a choice of Manchester terminals and a variety of routes.
- A service linking Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport would be possible. Current services go via the West Coast Main Line.
- Inwards to Manchester, an improved Salford Crescent station could be a cross-platform interchange with Salford Central/Victoria services on one platform face and Deansgate/Oxford Road/Piccadilly/Airport services on the other.
- Similarly, outwards from Manchester, Salford Crescent station could be a cross platform interchange between services.
I think that this could lead to the Metrolink being connected to one or both of the two Salford stations.
To sum everything up, there will be lots of trains going through the three stations of Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly and Salford Crescent.
And all those trains using the Windsor Link and the Ordsall Chord will be coming through Platform 13 or Platform 14 at Manchester Piccadlly station.
Overcrowding At Platform 13 and 14 At Manchester Piccadilly Station
Overcrowding at these two platforms is bad enough already and it’s going to get worse if more and longer trains are running through the platforms.
Looking at the picture, the platforms are not overly-wide either.
But at least there are solutions, as I’ll discuss now.
The Alternative Route
Londoners are world-champions at ducking-and diving and will find the route that is quickest after a few weeks of a new rail line or bus route opening. It’s probably one of the reasons that Transport for London, placed the forecast for the passenger usage on the London Overground on the low side.
I don’t know how Mancunians will react to the Ordsall Chord and the new Northern Electrics services, but if they quickly suss-out the best route for their personal journey, this may mean that passengers avoid using Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly.
There are a quite a few interchange stations on the Piccadilly-Salford Crescent and Piccadilly-Victoria routes through the City.
Better Access To The Island Platform 13/14
Access to the island platform is not good and perhaps more escalators and lifts will help.
Whatever is done to improve the through route, improvement of the access will be on the list of projects to perform.
A Bigger Island Platform 13/14
Looking at the picture in this post, I wonder if the island platform could be made bigger.
If it was wider, this would need the tracks to be moved apart and if this is possible another metre on the platform width would help.
I was on Platform A at St. Pancras Thameslink station this morning and it is very long platform, with the trains stopping vaguely in the middle, thus leaving spare platform space at each end.
So if the platform could be lengthened would this help with the overcrowding?
This Google Map shows the Western end of Platform 13/14.
Platform 13/14 is the pointy one in the middle.
And this one the Eastern end.
Again Platform 13/14 is the one in the middle.
It’s all very tight and I estimate Platform 13/14 isn’t much more then ten metres wide at any point.
Access to Platforms 13/14 From Below
I don’t know whether this is possible, but the platforms sit on a large viaduct and in many stations like this escalators and lifts are used to access the platforms from below.
This picture shows the Platforms on the viaduct.
Platform 14 is closest to the camera.
I think that with imagination, access might be possible from this side.
A New Bridge To Platforms 13/14
This Google Map shows the London end of the platforms at Piccadilly.
Platform 13/14 is at the bottom of the picture.
I think there is space to put a second bridge over the platforms here and it could reach all the way to the new HS2 platforms on the other side of the station.
Platforms 15 And 16 At Manchester Piccadilly Station
Building two new platforms 15 and 16 has been touted as a solution.
I think that the key to whether four through platforms is needed, is how many trains will be going through.
In a few years time the two track cross-London lines; Crossrail aqnd Thameslink will be handling 24 tph, with a third; the East London Line handling 20 tph.
Also at London Bridge, 54 tph in both directions are handled by nine platforms, which means that an average of 12 tph go through each platform.
If you look at the Y-shaped line through Manchester, Thameslink could be overlaid on the top.
- Blackfriars would be Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly.
- St. Pancras Thameslink would be Deansgate.
- West Hampstead Thameslink would be Salford Crescent.
- Finsbury Park would be Victoria.
Other conditions would be needed for a throughput approaching that of Thameslink.
- All trains must be modern electric trains, capable of making quick stops.
- All trains must be fitted with modern signalling.
- No trains terminating at Manchester Oxford Road
- Some services from the North linked back-to-back with services to the South to free up platform space at Victoria and Piccadilly.
Thameslink is aiming for 24 tph and currently runs 14 tph.
I can’t see, if everything is done correctly, that Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly can’t handle somewhere between 14-24 tph.
And as Thameslink manages 14 tph with a proportion of Class 319 trains, I would be very surprised if this figure is not attainable.
Under Proposal in the Wikipedia entry for the Ordsall Chord, this is said.
The Ordsall Chord will provide a direct link between Piccadilly and Victoria stations, allowing trains from Manchester Victoria and the east to continue to Piccadilly. On completion the chord will allow four trains per hour to travel between Manchester Airport/Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Victoria in each direction, eight trains per hour from Manchester Victoria towards the west via Chat Moss, and six trains per hour from Manchester Piccadilly towards either Chat Moss or Bolton and Preston. Other trains will travel from Manchester Piccadilly via Warrington.
This appears to say that only the following trains would use Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly.
- 4 tph Manchester Airport/Piccadilly to Victoria
- 6 tph Piccadilly to Chat Moss or Bolton/Preston
So that is just 10 tph.
Currently, in the Peak, it appears that the frequency of trains between Oxford Road and Piccadilly is 10 tph.
I have a feeling that with a bit of reorganisation of services, the rather difficut problem of building Platforms 15/16 can be delayed for ten years or more, if not for ever.
Manchester Airport From The South
How would people from Birmingham, London and the South get to Manchester Airport?
There are two routes.
- Change at Manchester Picaadilly to any of the several tph to Manchester Airport
- Change at Crewe to the Crewe-Manchester Line.
I would use the second option as it’s fifteen minutes quicker and avoids Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly.
I suspect that the train companies will reorganise their services from Crewe to Manchester via the Airport to take advantage of the Ordsall curve and the new electrification North of Manchester.
HS2 Arrives At Crewe
HS2 will have various effects, when it arrives at Crewe in 2027!
One interesting idea, borrowed from the French, would be to split and join, shorter HS2 trains at Crewe. So perhaps two or even three shorter units would work as a larger unit between London and Crewe.
The advantage of this is that anywhere that is electrified and has a platform long enough could get a high-speed service to London and the South, if the market was there.
According to this page in the Guardian, Crewe will be just 58 minutes from London, instead of the fastest time of 97 minutes today.
Currently Crewe to Manchester Airport takes thirty minutes in a Class 323 train. If as I suspect HS2 trains can run efficiently on classic lines, the following times might be possible using the 110 mph Crewe-Manchester Line to complete the journey.
- Manchester Piccadilly – 88 minutes instead of the current 127 minutes.
- Manchester Airport – possibly 78 minutes instead of 144 minutes.
- Stockport – 76 minutes instead of 115 minutes
No services would need any changes.
But a train might leave London, do a quick stop at Crewe, where it divided with one portion going to Manchester Airport and the other to Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.
The operator would be able to run short HS2 trains on the classic lines to the North and East of Manchester using the lines now being electrified.
Currently, Huddersfield to Manchester Piccadilly takes 33 minutes, so a modern electric train must be able to do the journey in 20 minutes.
On my estimate of 88 minutes to Piccadilly using HS2, on the electrified existing tracks Huddersfield could be reached without a change in 108 minutes.
The current fastest time is 175 minutes with a change at York.
Running HS2 trains through platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly would have no effect on the design of the platforms, as the HS2 trains will be designed to run to any electrified platform, that is long enough.
The interesting destination of a portion of a train would be Blackburn, if the electrification was extended to the town.
I estimate it could be done in 133 minutes without a change as opposed to 162 minutes today with a change at Preston.
Until 1964, the Ribble Valley Line used to host a Manchester-Glasgow express and now I believe it could have a HS2 service to and from London.
Conclusion
Manchester and its environs will get a much better rail system.
But I suspect it will be some years before Piccadilly gets Platforms 15/16
The Anonymous Widower 