Manchester Piccadilly Station Platform Layout
In this post, I will look at the current platform layout at Manchester Piccadilly station and see if it could be updated for High Speed Two.
This OpenRailwayMap shows the current platform layout at the station.
Note.
- There are twelve platforms in the main station, which are numbered 1 to 12 from North to South.
- There are also two platforms to the South of the main station, which are on the Castlefield Corridor and numbered 13 and 14.
- The current Avanti West Coast services use Platforms 5 to 8.
- Platforms 1 to 8 seem well-spaced.
- The Internet gives the length of Platform 1 as 238 metres, so it can be used as a ruler on all the platforms.
- The green tracks are for the Manchester Metrolink, which runs under the station.
I will now take a detailed look at the four platforms used by Avanti West Coast services, which are 5 to 8.
- The platforms are 340, 277, 277 and 340 metres long respectively.
- All four platforms can handle 11-car Pendolino Class 390 trains, which are 265.3 metres long.
- All four platforms will also handle 8-car HS2 Classic-Compatible trains, which will be 200 metres long.
- The platforms also seem to have a straight run-in to the buffers, which is about 260 metres long.
- This straight section is long enough to accommodate an 11-car Pendolino or an 8-car HS2 Classic-Compatible train.
I would think it reasonable that an 8-car HS2 Classic-Compatible train could take over the service of an 11-car Pendolino, but running on HS2 infrastructure, where it exists.
The current Avanti West Coast service to Manchester Piccadilly is as follows.
- 1 tph – 9-car or 11-car – London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly via Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport
- 1 tph – 9-car or 11-car – London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly via Nuneaton, Stoke-on-Trent and Stockport
- 1 tph – 9-car or 11-car – London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly via Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport
In the original design for HS2, this was the service pattern.
Note.
- Trains to the left of the vertical black line are Phase 1 and those to the right are Phase 2.
- Full-Size trains are shown in blue.
- Classic-Compatible trains are shown in yellow.
- The dotted circles are where trains split and join.
- In the red boxes routes alternate every hour.
Click on the diagram to enlarge it.
Services to Manchester Piccadilly and the Manchester area are as follows.
- Train 6 – 200 m. HS2 CC – London Euston and Macclesfield via Old Oak Common, Stafford and Stoke-on-Trent
- Train 7 – 400 m HS2 FS – London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly via Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange and Manchester Airport
- Train 8 – 400 m HS2 FS – London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly via Old Oak Common and Manchester Airport
- Train 9 – 400 m HS2 FS – London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly via Old Oak Common and Manchester Airport
- Train 13 – 200 m HS2 FS – Birmingham Curzon Street and Manchester Piccadilly via Manchester Airport
- Train 14 – 200 m HS2 FS – Birmingham Curzon Street and Manchester Piccadilly via Manchester Airport
Note.
- All trains are one train per hour (tph)
- Macclesfield should be able to handle one 200 m. HS2 Classic-Compatible train per hour, as it is shorter and has less passengers than an 11-car Pendolino.
- All Manchester Piccadilly services call at Manchester Airport.
I believe this allows two possible solutions.
- A largely tunneled solution, that gives access to enough 400 m platforms underneath or alongside Manchester Piccadilly station.
- An interim solution, that replaces 11-car Pendolinos with 200 m. HS2 Classic-Compatible trains.
I will answer this question first.
Will HS2 Use A Tunnel Between Manchester Airport And Manchester Piccadilly Station?
I asked Google AI and received this answer.
Yes, in the original HS2 proposals, a 7.5-mile twin-bore tunnel was planned to run between Manchester Airport and the Ardwick area, surfacing near Manchester Piccadilly. This tunnel was designed to carry the high-speed line underneath the built-up areas of south Manchester and into the terminal station.
Key Details of the Proposed Tunnel:
Purpose: To connect the new Manchester Airport High Speed Station with Manchester Piccadilly station.
Structure: A 7.5-mile (approx. 12km) twin tunnel.
Route: Following the airport, the line would enter the tunnel, traveling towards Piccadilly station.
Location: The tunnel handles the approach to Manchester city centre, allowing the high-speed tracks to bypass surface-level congestion in the south Manchester suburbs.
Note: While this was the planned route for Phase 2b, the future of the northern leg of HS2 has been subject to change and government reviews, which may impact these designs
The Full Solution
This will entail the following.
- A two-platform underground station at Manchester Airport, that is capable of handling 400 m. HS2 Full-Size trains.
- A large enough extension to Manchester Piccadilly station that is capable of terminating enough 400 m. HS2 Full-Size trains.
- The extension to Manchester Piccadilly station could be underneath or alongside, the current station.
- A 7.5 mile twin-bore tunnel between the two stations.
I also believe the full solution will need the completion of the high speed line between Handsacre junction and Crewe.
That would be an expensive and difficult solution, so we will need an interim solution.
The Interim Solution
This will entail the following.
- All HS2 services into Manchester Piccadilly will be run by 8-car 200 m. HS2 Classic-Compatible trains.
- They will use Platforms 5 to 8 in Manchester Piccadilly station, which are 340, 277, 277 and 340 metres long respectively.
- The Manchester Piccadilly services will not call at Manchester Airport.
- The Macclesfield service will run to serve Stafford and Stoke-on-Trent.
- I also believe the interim solution will not need the completion of the high speed line between Handsacre junction and Crewe.
My project management experience leads me to believe, that after HS2 is completed to Handsacre junction, Manchester Piccadilly station could be served by 8-car 200 m. HS2 Classic-Compatible trains.
How Many Trains Will The Interim Solution Run Through The Trent Valley Line?
If the interim solution is to work, then HS2 trains for North of Handsacre Junction will have to take their chances on the Trent Valley Line.
This OpenRailwayMap shows the route of the Trent Valley Line between Handsacre Junction and Crewe.
Note.
- Stafford station is marked with a blue arrow.
- Crewe station is in the North-West corner of the map.
- Lichfield Trent Valley station is in the South-East corner of the map.
- The Northern end of HS2 is should dotted around Lichfield Trent Valley station
- Rugeley Trent Valley station is to the North-West of Lichfield Trent Valley station.
- Crewe, Stafford, Rugeley Trent Valley and Lichfield Trent Valley stations are all on the Trent Valley Line, which runs North-West and South-East across the map.
- Handsacre junction is to the North of Lichfield Trent Valley station and links the North end of HS2 to the the Trent Valley Line.
This second OpenRailwayMap shows Handsacre junction in more detail.
Note.
- Rugeley Trent Valley station is in the North-West corner of the map.
- Lichfield Trent Valley station is in the South-East corner of the map.
- The Trent Valley Line runs diagonally across the map between the two stations.
- The route of HS2 is shown as a dotted red line in the South-East corner of the map.
- HS2 and the Trent Valley Line will join at Handsacre junction.
The stub of HS2 in the North-East corner of the map, will eventually link to Crewe.
The following services will join the Trent Valley Line at Handsacre junction.
- Train 4a – 200 m. HS2 CC – London Euston and Lancaster via Old Oak Common, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western and Preston
- Train 4b – 200 m. HS2 CC – London Euston and Liverpool via Old Oak Common, Crewe and Runcorn
- Train 5 – 200 m. HS2 CC – London Euston and Liverpool via Old Oak Common, Crewe and Runcorn
- Train 6 – 200 m. HS2 CC – London Euston and Macclesfield via Old Oak Common, Stafford and Stoke-on-Trent
- Train 7 – 200 m HS2 CC – London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly via Old Oak Common and Birmingham Interchange
- Train 8 – 200 m HS2 CC – London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly via Old Oak Common
- Train 9 – 200 m HS2 CC – London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly via Old Oak Common
- Train 10a – 200 m HS2 CC – London Euston and Edinburgh Waverley via Old Oak Common, Preston, Carlisle and Edinburgh Haymarket
- Train 10b – 200 m HS2 CC – London Euston and Glasgow Central via Old Oak Common, Preston and Carlisle
- Train 11a – 200 m HS2 CC – London Euston and Edinburgh Waverley via Old Oak Common, Birmingham International, Preston, Carlisle and Edinburgh Haymarket
- Train 11b – 200 m HS2 CC – London Euston and Glasgow Central via Old Oak Common, Birmingham International, Preston and Carlisle
- Train 12 – 200 m HS2 CC – Birmingham Curzon Street and Edinburgh Waverley/Glasgow Central via Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Carstairs and Edinburgh Haymarket/Motherwell
- Train 13 – 200 m HS2 CC – Birmingham Curzon Street and Manchester Piccadilly
- Train 14 – 200 m HS2 CC – Birmingham Curzon Street and Manchester Piccadilly
Note.
- All trains are one train per hour (tph)
- Train 4 splits and joins at Crewe, so runs as a 400 m train on the Trent Valley Line.
- Train 10 splits and joins at Carlisle, so runs as a 400 m train on the Trent Valley Line.
- Train 11 splits and joins at Carlisle, so runs as a 400 m train on the Trent Valley Line.
- Train 12 runs alternatively to Edinburgh Haymarket and Edinburgh Waverley/Motherwell and Glasgow Central.
In any hour, it looks like eight single trains and three pairs will run along the Trent Valley Line.
How Close In Minutes Can Trains Run On The Trent Valley Line?
I asked Google AI and received this answer.
On the modernised Trent Valley Line (part of the West Coast Main Line), trains can run at high frequencies, often with fast, long-distance services operating with headway (spacing) of approximately 3 to 5 minutes, though typically, a 2-4 train per hour per direction service pattern is standard, equating to 15–30 minute intervals between similar services.
Capacity: The line is a four-track railway between Rugby and Stafford, allowing fast, long-distance express trains (up to 125 mph) to overtake slower, local, and freight trains.
Service Frequency: High-frequency, high-speed travel is standard.
Constraints: While the infrastructure supports close spacing, schedules are constrained by capacity at major bottlenecks and the requirement for consistent track maintenance.
It’s probably tight, but not impossibly so. Especially, as Train 6 to Macclesfield cuts off through Stoke-on-Tent after Stafford.
What Is The Capacity Of Each Train Timetable Between London Euston And Manchester Piccadilly/Macclesfield?
Consider.
- An 11-car Pendolino has 607 seats.
- I’m assuming all Pendolinos are 11-car trains.
- An 8-car HS2 Classic-Compatible train has 504 seats.
- I’m assuming that HS2 Full Size trains have the same capacity as the Classic Compatible trains.
These are figures for each timetable.
Current Timetable
3 x 11-car Pendolino = 1,821 seats. per hour
Interim Timetable
4 x 8-car 200 m. HS2 Classic-Compatible trains = 2,016 seats per hour, which is a 10.7 % increase over today.
Full Timetable
7 x 8-car 200 m. HS2 Classic-Compatible trains = 3,538 seats per hour, which is a 93.7 % increase over today.
How Many Trains Run On Each Section Of HS2?
Current Timetable
None
Interim Timetable
These are my estimates of trains per hour on each section.
- London Euston and Birmingham – 11 tph
- Birmingham and Stafford – 11 tph
- Stafford and Crewe – 10 tph
- Stafford and Macclesfield – 1 tph
- Crewe and Liverpool – 2 tph
- Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly – 5 tph
- Crewe and Preston – 4 tph
- Preston and Lancaster – 4 tph
- Lancaster and Carlisle – 3 tph
- Carlisle and Edinburgh Waverley – 2.5 tph
- Carlisle and Glasgow Central – 2.5 tph
There would appear to be spare capacity for up to six trains per hour, South of Crewe.
Full Timetable
These are my estimates of trains per hour on each section.
- London Euston and Birmingham – 11 tph
- Birmingham and Stafford – 11 tph
- Stafford and Crewe – 10 tph
- Stafford and Macclesfield – 1 tph
- Crewe and Liverpool – 2 tph
- Crewe and Manchester Airport- 5 tph
- Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly – 5 tph
- Crewe and Preston – 4 tph
- Preston and Lancaster – 4 tph
- Lancaster and Carlisle – 3 tph
- Carlisle and Edinburgh Waverley – 2.5 tph
- Carlisle and Glasgow Central – 2.5 tph
There would still appear to be spare capacity for up to six trains per hour, South of Crewe.
Conclusions
Theses are my conclusions.
- There Are At Least Six Free Train Paths In Every Hour Between London And Crewe
This is partly because the Eastern leg was cancelled. But it does seem silly to waste them.
I believe Blackpool would be a good place to serve and I said so in Could High Speed Two Serve Blackpool North?
Other possible places would be Chester, Holyhead and Scotland.
2. There Will Need To Be A Tunnel To Connect Manchester Piccadilly And Manchester Airport
This is because you can’t knock all the houses down to build the link.
The Channel Tunnel Rail Link is tunnelled under Dalston in East London for the same reason.
3. Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport services will be five Trains Per Hour
Two of these five trains will go to Birmingham Curzon Street and three to London Euston.
I would expect that the Manchester Tunnel will be an important project for the finances of Manchester Airport.
4. When The Manchester Tunnel Is Built, This Will Double Seat Capacity Between London And Manchester Piccadilly
This is because it will allow 400 metre trains between London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly.
5. HS2 Can Run To Manchester Without Building The Manchester Tunnel Or A High Speed Line Between Crewe And Birmingham
This surprised me at first, but it appears, that it’s because HS2 Classic-Compatible trains are shorter than 11-car Pendolinos.
6. HS2 Can’t Run To Manchester Airport Without Building the Manchester Tunnel.
It’s all because of the houses in between.
7. Single 200 m. HS2 Classic Compatible trains, Can Use The Unmodified Manchester Piccadilly.
This is because they are shorter than 11-car Pendolinos. But pairs can’t, as they are too long!
8. Stockport Gets A Raw Deal From HS2
Currently, Stockport, gets three 11-car Pendolino services between London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly.
Under the Interim Solution, these services will continue as HS2 Classic-Compatible trains are shorter than 11-car Pendolinos.
But under the Full Solution, HS2 trains will be in the Manchester Tunnel between Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly.
9. The Interim Solution Will Work
I am more and more convinced, that a proposed solution which entails the following will work.
- A new service from London Euston to Macclesfield via Old Oak Common, Stafford and Stoke-on-Trent is introduced.
- 11-car Pendolinos are replaced by 8-car HS2 Classic-Compatible trains, which are shorter.
- The Trent Valley Line is updated, so that it can handle 11 trains per hour, that will eventually be transferred to the new HS2 line between Handsacre junction and Crewe.
- London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly will get three trains per hour via HS2 to Handsacre junction the Trent Valley Line.
- There will be no major work to be done at Manchester Piccadilly.
- Three trains per hour between London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly could still call at Stockport.
I also believe that this solution can be easily built, as it is mainly improving the existing route between Handsacre junction and Manchester Piccadilly via Crewe and Stockport.
Where Is Handsacre Junction?
Handsacre Junction is where High Speed Two trains from London Euston and Birmingham will join the Trent Valley Line to complete their journeys via Stafford and Crewe.
This OpenRailwayMap shows the junction.
Note.
- The solid red track going diagonally across the map is the Trent Valley Line, which is a section of the West Coast Main Line.
- The station on the Trent Valley Line at the top of the map is Rugeley Trent Valley.
- The station on the Trent Valley Line at the bottom of the map is Lichfield Trent Valley.
- The dotted tracks running North-South show the proposed route of High Speed Two.
- Only the dashed sections of tracks will be built for Phase 1 of High Speed Two.
From the map, I estimate that that High Speed Two will join the Trent Valley Line at the mid-way point between the two stations.
According to Real Time Trains, the stations are these distances from Euston.
- Lichfield Trent Valley – 116.4 miles
- Rugeley Trent Valley – 124.4 miles
So this puts Handsacre Junction at 120.4 miles from Euston.
Searching the Internet, I find the distance between Euston and Handsacre Junction on High Speed Two as 192.77 km. or 119.8 miles.
It would appear that the High Speed Two route is 0.6 mile longer.
Euston And Handsacre Junction Times
This table shows Euston and Handsacre junction times at various speeds.
High Speed Two Average Speed – 205 mph – 35 mins.
Class 390 Train Average Speed – 140 mph – 51 mins.
Euston And Glasgow Central Times
If I assume, that the trains take the same three hours and 47 minutes between Handsacre junction and Glasgow Central as Class 390 trains do now, I get these times.
High Speed Two Average Speed – 205 mph – 4 hour and 22 mins.
Class 390 Train Average Speed – 140 mph – 4 hours and 38 mins.
Euston And Liverpool Lime Street Times
If I assume, that the trains take the same 71 minutes between Handsacre junction and Liverpool Lime Street as Class 390 trains do now, I get these times.
High Speed Two Average Speed – 205 mph – 1 hour and 46 mins.
Class 390 Train Average Speed – 140 mph – 2 hours and 2 mins.
Euston And Manchester Piccadilly Times
If I assume, that the trains take the same 66 minutes between Handsacre junction and Manchester Piccadilly as Class 390 trains do now, I get these times.
High Speed Two Average Speed – 205 mph – 1 hour and 41 mins.
Class 390 Train Average Speed – 140 mph – 1 hours and 57 mins.
Mayors Propose New Staffordshire To Manchester Rail Line
The title of this post, is the same as that of this article on Greater Birmingham Chambers of Commerce.
These five paragraphs introduce the article.
The mayors of the West Midlands and Greater Manchester have set out proposals for a new railway line between Staffordshire and Manchester Airport in a bid to improve connections to the north.
Work commission by West Midlands mayor Andy Street and Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham has concluded the new line is the preferred option to tackle congestion on the West Coast Mainline, following the government’s decision to curtail HS2 beyond Birmingham.
A private sector group – chaired by infrastructure expert Sir David Higgins – had been looking at three potential options to improve connectivity between Birmingham and Manchester.
The options included undertaking significant engineering upgrades to the West Coast Main Line, building bypasses at the pinch points on the line and building a new railway between Handsacre and Manchester Airport.
The group, convened by the mayors, is led by global engineering firm Arup with input from over 60 partners from six other firms – Arcadis, Addleshaw Goddard, EY, Dragados, Mace and Skanska.
This paragraph gives the conclusion.
The group has provisionally concluded that a new line – running approximately 70 miles between HS2 at Handsacre and Northern Powerhouse Rail at High Legh – is likely to offer the best combination of costs and benefits.
It looks to me, that this professional approach has led to a sensible answer.
I will now look at the route.
This Open Railway Map shows the tracks to the South of Handsacre.
Note.
- The blue arrow in the North-West corner of the map, indicates the location of the former Armitage station, which had the village of Handsacre to its North-East.
- The red line through Armitage station is the Trent Valley Line.
- Lichfield Trent Valley station is at the bottom of the map.
- The line drawn with large dashes from the South-East corner of the map is the proposed line of High Speed Two. Red indicates under construction and black indicates proposed.
High Speed Two splits into two.
One branch goes North-West to join the Trent Valley Line, whilst the other just stops after about a kilometre.
- All trains for Liverpool, Manchester, North Wales, The North and Scotland will take the Trent Valley Line, when High Speed Two opens.
- Trains for Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and some to Manchester will leave the Trent Valley Line at Colwich Junction.
- All other trains, will take the same route as now and proceed to Crewe via Stafford.
The red dotted line leading from the cancelled branch of High Speed Two shows where the original fast line to Crewe was planned to go.
This Open Railway Map shows the tracks around Crewe.
Note.
- Crewe is the important junction station towards the North-West corner of the map.
- The orange line going South is the West Coast Main Line to The South and London.
- The red dotted line running along the West side of the West Coast Main Line was the proposed route of High Speed Two from Birmingham, London and the South.
This Open Railway Map shows the originally proposed direct route of High Speed Two between Crewe and Handsacre.
Note.
- Crewe is in the North-West corner of the map.
- The blue arrow in the South-East corner of the map, indicates the location of the former Armitage station, which had the village of Handsacre to its North-East.
- The dotted red line was the originally proposed route of High Speed Two.
I feel that this route between Handsacre and Crewe has advantages if it were to be chosen as part of a route between Handsacre and Northern Powerhouse Rail, as recommended by the Mayors and their consultants.
- The route seems to stay well clear of large conurbations.
- A lot of the design work has been at least started and major problems will be known.
- Crewe is the only station on the route, which will need to be upgraded.
- Services to Liverpool, Manchester, North Wales, The North and Scotland will be speeded up.
- With Crewe, Liverpool and North Wales, times could be as High Speed Two promised in the first place.
I feel that building the Handsacre and Crewe section, as originally envisaged, will score high in a benefit/cost analysis
This OpenRailwayMap shows the originally proposed route of High Speed Two between Crewe and Manchester Airport.
Note.
- Crewe is towards the South-West corner of the map.
- Manchester Airport is in the North-East corner of the map.
- The red line going North from Crewe is the West Coast Main Line.
- The dotted red line was the originally proposed route of High Speed Two, between the West Coast Main Line and Manchester Airport.
Northern Powerhouse Rail will go West from Manchester Airport towards Warrington and Liverpool and will join with High Speed Two at a junction at High Legh.
Northern Powerhouse Rail is currently being planned, but surely, if High Speed Two and Northern Powerhouse Rail share a line from High Legh to Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly, this will be a more affordable project.
Services To Crewe
In Could The High Speed Two Link Between Lichfield And Crewe Still Be Built?, which I wrote after much of High Speed Two was chopped in 2023, I said this.
Currently, Avanti West Coast trains take around one hour and thirty minutes between London and Crewe.
The Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two gives these times between London and Crewe.
- Fastest time before High Speed Two – one hour and thirty minutes.
- Time after Phase 2a of High Speed Two opens – fifty-six minutes.
Note.
- That is a time saving of thirty-four minutes.
- High Speed Two Trains will use the direct line between Lichfield and Crewe.
- High Speed Two will also add eighteen tph to the capacity between London and Crewe.
This would seem to mean that any trains going to or through Crewe will be thirty-four minutes faster, if they use High Speed Two between London and Crewe.
If the Handsacre and Crewe direct line is built, it looks like London and Crewe will be the full High Speed Two time of 56 minutes.
Services To Liverpool
Consider.
- Liverpool Lime Street was originally planned to get two trains per hour (tph) to and from London using High Speed Two.
- The approaches into Liverpool were improved a few years ago.
- No more improvements are planned between Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street stations.
- Between Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street stations currently takes 38 minutes.
- There could be time savings on the 16.3 miles between Crewe and Weaver Junction, which currently takes 21 minutes.
It looks like a time of one hour and 34 minutes could be possible, with under one hour and 30 minutes not being impossible.
Services To Manchester
Consider.
- Manchester was originally planned to get three tph to and from London using High Speed Two.
- No improvements are planned between Crewe and the Manchester stations.
- Between Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly stations currently takes 34 minutes.
It looks like a time of one hour and 30 minutes could be possible.
But there is still the option of building a new line between Crewe and Northern Powerhouse Rail at High Legh.
I showed this OpenRailwayMap earlier and it shows the originally proposed route of High Speed Two between Crewe and Manchester Airport.
Note.
- Crewe is towards the South-West corner of the map.
- Manchester Airport is in the North-East corner of the map.
- The red line going North from Crewe is the West Coast Main Line.
- The dotted red line was the originally proposed route of High Speed Two, between the West Coast Main Line and Manchester Airport.
Northern Powerhouse Rail is currently being planned. and will go West from Manchester Airport towards Warrington and Liverpool and will be built first.
A junction at High Legh will be built to link the West Coast Main Line to Northern Powerhouse Rail.
Services To North Wales
Why Not? With the cancellation of the Eastern Leg of High Speed Two, there must be a path available for North Wales.
Consider.
- The North Wales Main Line has been promised electrification.
- As Holyhead and Crewe is only 105.5 miles, it could even be in battery high speed train range in a few years.
- All times to and from Crewe are assumed to be as Avanti West Coast achieve now.
- As Crewe and Chester currently takes 23 minutes, London and Chester would take 1 hour and 19 minutes.
- As Crewe and Llandudno Junction currently takes 1 hour and 22 minutes, London and Llandudno Junction would take 2 hours and 18 minutes.
- As Crewe and Holyhead currently takes 2 hours and 7 minutes, London and Holyhead would take 3 hours and 3 minutes.
Could this open up a fast zero-carbon route between London and Dublin?
Services To Blackpool, Lancaster, Preston, Warrington And Wigan
Why Not, Blackpool? With the cancellation of the Eastern Leg of High Speed Two, there must be an extra path available, if it is needed.
Cpnsider.
- All routes are electrified.
- All times to and from Crewe are assumed to be as Avanti West Coast achieve now.
- As Crewe and Blackpool currently takes 1 hour and 20 minutes, London and Blackpool would take 2 hour and 16 minutes.
- As Crewe and Lancaster currently takes 60 minutes, London and Lancaster would take 1 hour and 56 minutes.
- As Crewe and Preston currently takes 40 minutes, London and Preston would take 1 hour and 36 minutes.
- As Crewe and Warrington Bank Quay currently takes 22 minutes, London and Warrington Bank Quay would take 1 hour and 18 minutes.
- As Crewe and Wigan North Western currently takes 33 minutes, London and Wigan North Western would take 1 hour and 29 minutes.
Note.
- Lancaster in under two hours will help the Eden Project Morecambe.
- For some areas of the North West, it might be more convenient to change at Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western or Preston.
Improvements to track and signalling could probably bring benefits.
Services To Carlisle And Central Scotland
Cpnsider.
- All routes are electrified.
- All times to and from Crewe are assumed to be as Avanti West Coast achieve now.
- As Crewe and Carlisle currently takes 1 hour and 55 minutes, London and Carlisle would take 2 hours and 51 minutes.
- As Crewe and Lockerbie currently takes 2 hours and 6 minutes, London and Lockerbie would take 3 hours and 1 minute.
- As Crewe and Motherwell currently takes 2 hours and 45 minutes, London and Motherwell would take 3 hours and 41 minutes.
- As Crewe and Edinburgh currently takes 3 hours and 9 minutes, London and Edinburgh would take 4 hours and 5 minutes.
- As Crewe and Glasgow Central currently takes 3 hours and 3 minutes, London and Glasgow Central would take 3 hours and 59 minutes.
Note.
- Just under four hours to Glasgow Central would please the Marketing Department.
- Selective splitting and joining could increase the number of destinations.
Improvements to track and signalling could probably bring benefits.
Services To Stirling
In ORR: Open Access Services Given Green Light Between London And Stirling, I wrote about Grand Union Trains’s new open access service to Stirling.
There has been good feedback on this service, so perhaps one of the spare paths on High Speed Two could be allocated to Open Access Operators, so that more of the country could have a high speed service to London Euston and Birmingham Curzon Street stations.
In the related post, I showed that London Euston and Stirling takes forty five minutes longer than a London Euston and Motherwell service.
This would mean that a London Euston and Stirling service via High Speed Two would take four hours and 26 minutes.
Services Between Birmingham Curzon Street and the North West
Under the plans for High Speed Two, the following services would have run North from Birmingham Curzon Street.
- One tph to Edinburgh or Motherwell and Glasgow via Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie and Carstairs.
- Two tph to Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly.
But there are now spare paths South of Crewe, so Could a one tph Birmingham Curzon Street and Liverpool Lime Street service be squeezed in?
Could The Line Be Privately Financed?
I suspect that building the section between Handsacre and Crewe could be financed in perhaps a similar way, to the Chiltern improvements or the M6 Toll Road were financed.
- The Handsacre and Crewe section is just a simple stretch of rail, with a number of trains passing along it.
- The number of trains passing through, is likely to increase.
- Every train passing through would pay a track charge, just as they do to Network Rail.
- Those with lots of money to lend, like simple projects like wind farms or road tunnels, but think very hard about anything complicated like nuclear power stations or High Speed Two’s station at Euston.
Certainly, my late and very good friend, David, who dealt with the finance of some of London’s largest projects and was on the top table of London’s bankers, would have found a way. It might though have been unorthodox.
But then David was a rogue. But a rogue on the side of the angels.
Conclusion
I have come to these conclusions.
- Building the direct route between Handsacre and Crewe could be good value as it improves all routes that will pass through Crewe.
- Combining High Speed Two and Northern Powerhouse Rail could substantially cut the costs of both routes to the centre of Manchester.
- London and Crewe times should be 56 minutes.
- London and Liverpool Lime Street times could be under one hour and thirty minutes.
- London and Manchester Piccadilly times could start at one hour and thirty minutes and reduce when Northern Powerhouse Rail is built and linked to the West Coast Main Line.
- London and Holyhead could be just over three hours and could open up a fast zero-carbon route between London and Dublin.
- London and Lancaster in under two hours could help the Eden Project Morecambe.
It’s certainly not a bad plan and it should be looked at in more detail.
High Speed Two To Blackpool
There has been a lot of speculation about the Northern end of High Speed Two, so I might as well add sort out a few facts and add a bit of speculation of my own.
The Current Blackpool Service
I shall look at the 05:35 train on the 5th October 2023.
- It was a pair of Voyagers or Class 221 trains.
- Euston and Blackpool North are 226.5 miles apart.
- The train called at Preston, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Crewe and Stafford
- The train should have arrived at Preston at 05:56 and left at 0600.
- The train should have arrived at Wigan North Western at 06:11 and left at 06:12.
- The train should have arrived at Warrington Bank Quay at 06:22 and left at 06:24.
- The train should have arrived at Crewe at 06:46 and left at 06:55.
- The train should have arrived at Stafford at 07:13 and left at 07:14.
- The train should have arrived at London Euston at 08:35
- The journey took three hours.
- The average speed was 75.5 mph.
- The Crewe and Blackpool North section is 68.5 miles and the train is scheduled to take one hour and eleven minutes.
- The average speed between Crewe and Blackpool North is 57.9 mph.
- There are three trains per day (tpd).
Note.
- Other services between London Euston and Blackpool North are run by eleven-car Class 390 trains or Pendolinos.
- Blackpool North is fully electrified to London.
This means that London Euston and Blackpool North could be run using High Speed Two Classic-Compatible trains.
I have a few questions.
What Time Would Be Possible At The Present Time?
Consider.
- According to the Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two, one hour and seventeen minutes is the fastest time between London Euston and Stafford.
- The 05:35 is timed to take one hour and thirteen minutes with the four stops, between Blackpool North and Stafford.
This would give a London Euston and Blackpool North time of two hours and thirty minutes.
What Time Would Be Possible When High Speed Two Lite Opens To Handsacre Junction?
Consider.
- According to the Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two, fifty-five minutes will be the fastest time between London Euston and Stafford, after High Speed Two opens to Handsacre junction.
- The 05:35 is timed to take one hour and thirteen minutes with the four stops, between Blackpool North and Stafford.
This would give a London Euston and Blackpool North time of two hours and eight minutes.
What Frequency Would Be Needed?
LNER seem to run their secondary services to places like Harrogate and Lincoln using a frequency of one train per two hours (tp2h).
That could be an ideal frequency.
Would There Be A Path For The Train To And From London Euston?
This graphic shows High Speed Two services after Phase 2b is completed.
Note.
- Services shown in blue are run by High Speed Two Full Size trains.
- Services shown in yellow are run by High Speed Two Classic-Compatible trains.
- Each of these trains will have a frequency of one tph.
- The nine paths to the right of the vertical black line will not be needed for some time. If ever!
- It looks like a maximum of only eleven paths will be needed to the South of Birmingham.
- It looks like a maximum of only fourteen paths will be needed to the North of Birmingham.
In Will High Speed Two Lite Make Stafford An Important Station?, I totted up all the services through Stafford after High Speed Two Lite opened to Handsacre junction and got these figures.
- Through Stafford station, there are totals of 11 tpd and 14 tph.
- Along the Trent Valley Line, there are totals of 11 tpd and 12 tph.
- North of Stafford on the West Coast Main Line, there are totals of 9 tpd and 12 tph.
- South of Stafford on the West Coast Main Line, there are totals of 2 tpd and 2 tph.
- Between Stafford and Stoke-on-Trent, there are totals of 2 tph.
I accounted for services moving from the West Coast Main Line to High Speed Two.
Consider.
- A large proportion of the route between Preston and Handsacre junction, where the route would join High Speed Two Light has two dedicated high speed tracks and two tracks for freight and local services.
- Digital signalling on High Speed Two has been designed to handle eighteen trains per hour (tph) at 225 mph.
- Surely, the two dedicated high speed tracks, if fitted with High Speed Two digital signalling could handle say 16 tph at 140 mph.
- Network Rail are good at juggling trains to squeeze in more services.
- Extra paths could be created by splitting and joining trains at Crewe or Preston.
My Control Engineering training and practice tells me that it should be possible to add perhaps two tph between Preston and Euston.
Conclusion
I believe that High Speed Two Classic-Compatible trains could be close to two hours between Blackpool and London Euston, when High Speed Two Lite opens from Handsacre junction.
Could The High Speed Two Link Between Lichfield And Crewe Still Be Built?
The original plan for High Speed Two included two routes between Lichfield and Crewe.
This map clipped from the High Speed Two web site, shows the two routes.
Note.
- High Speed Two Phase 2a is shown in blue.
- High Speed Two Phase 2b is shown in orange.
- Crewe is in the North-West corner of the map, at the Southern end of the orange section.
- The junction at Lichfield is in the South-East corner of the map.
- The lighter blue route to the East, between the Lichfield junction and Crewe is the proposed new tracks of High Speed Two.
- The darker blue route to the West, between the Lichfield junction and Crewe is the existing route of the Trent Valley Line and the West Coast Main Line.
- The Trent Valley Line joins the West Coast Main Line at Stafford.
This second map clipped from the High Speed Two web site, shows the junction North of Lichfield, where High Speed Two connects to the Trent Valley Line through Stafford.
Note.
- High Speed Two runs North-South across the map.
- After the Junction by Fradley South, High Speed Two to Crewe and the North, is the branch to the East.
- The other branch connects to the Trent Valley Line at Handsacre junction.
- Trent Valley Line can be picked out North of Lichfield, where it passes through Lichfield Trent Valley station.
The Trent Valley Line is no Victorian double-track slow-speed bottleneck.
- The route between Rugby and Crewe is generally three or four tracks, with only one short stretch of double track, through Shugborough tunnel.
- The speed limit is generally 110 mph, with 90 mph at Shugborough.
- I wouldn’t be surprised to see Avanti West Coast’s Class 390 and Class 807 trains could be running at up to 140 mph on the route, if digital signalling were to be installed.
- This speed would probably be attained by High Speed Two trains.
London Euston and Stafford would only have under twenty miles of slower line and that could be 140 mph, so High Speed Two times on the route could be very fast.
Trains Between London And Stafford Before And After High Speed Two To Lichfield
Currently, Avanti West Coast trains take around one hour and seventeen minutes between London and Stafford.
The Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two gives these times between London and Stafford.
- Fastest time before High Speed Two – one hour and seventeen minutes.
- Time after Phase 2a of High Speed Two opens – fifty-five minutes.
Note.
- That is a time saving of twenty-two minutes.
- High Speed Two Trains will use the link between the junction at Lichfield and the Trent Valley Line.
- High Speed Two will also add eighteen trains per hour (tph) to the capacity between London and Lichfield.
This would seem to mean that any trains going to or through Stafford will be twenty-two minutes faster, if they use High Speed Two between London and Lichfield.
Trains Between London And Crewe Before And After High Speed Two To Crewe
Currently, Avanti West Coast trains take around one hour and thirty minutes between London and Crewe.
The Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two gives these times between London and Crewe.
- Fastest time before High Speed Two – one hour and thirty minutes.
- Time after Phase 2a of High Speed Two opens – fifty-six minutes.
Note.
- That is a time saving of thirty-four minutes.
- High Speed Two Trains will use the direct line between Lichfield and Crewe.
- High Speed Two will also add eighteen tph to the capacity between London and Crewe.
This would seem to mean that any trains going to or through Crewe will be thirty-four minutes faster, if they use High Speed Two between London and Crewe.
High Speed Two Between Lichfield And Crewe Only Saves An Extra Twelve Minutes
It appears that extending High Speed Two to Crewe only saves an extra twelve minutes.
But it will also have these benefits.
High Speed Two Full-Size trains will be able to run to Crewe.
High Speed Two will also add eighteen tph to the capacity between London and Crewe.
Savings From Scrapping High Speed Two Between Lichfield And Crewe
In addition to the savings of the scrapping of the line, I suspect that any modifications to Crewe station will be much simpler.
I wonder how much will be saved by not building High Speed Two to Crewe.
Could The High Speed Two Link Between Lichfield And Crewe Still Be Built?
This is the question I asked in the title.
We know the benefits of building High Speed Two and as time progresses we’ll know the costs and the disruption the building will cause with an increasing accuracy.
I also believe that even High Speed Two Lite will be a rip-roaring success, and other places will want their own High Speed Two service, which will need an increase in capacity North of Lichfield.
So there will come a point, when there is an overwhelming case to build the High Speed Two Link Between Lichfield and Crewe.
Because of that we must make sure, that any sales of land or properties, doesn’t compromise building the High Speed Two Link Between Lichfield and Crewe.
Conclusion
There will come a point, when the amount of traffic, will mean that it is worth building the High Speed Two Link Between Lichfield and Crewe.
My other conclusion is important and the route of the originally proposed High Speed Two Link Between Lichfield and Crewe, must not be compromised.
Could High Speed Two Finish At Lichfield?
I wrote this post before Rishi Sunak made his speech.
I went to Manchester and Liverpool yesterday by train.
I took the 10:33 from Euston and this a summary of my journey.
- The train left Euston half a minute early.
- It arrived at Stafford (133.5 miles) at 11:50 and left at 11:52.
- It arrived at Crewe (158.0 miles) at 12:08 and left at 12.10.
- It arrived at Wilmslow (176.9 miles) at 12:25 and left at 12:27.
- It arrived at Stockport (183.0 miles) at 12:35 and left at 12:37.
- It arrived in Manchester Piccadilly (188.9 miles) at 12:46.
- It was two minutes late into Manchester and more or less on time at the other stops.
Note.
- The route was via the Trent Valley Line and the train passed through Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Colwich and Stafford.
- Euston and Manchester had been timetabled at two hours and eleven minutes.
- This is an average speed of 86.5 mph.
- The Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two gives the fastest time before High Speed Two opens as one hour and fifty-four minutes.
- This will be an average speed of 99.4 mph.
Coming home, I took the 18:48 from Liverpool Lime Street and this a summary of my journey.
- The train left Liverpool on time.
- It arrived at Runcorn (13.2 miles) at 18:58 and left at 19:02.
- It arrived at Crewe (35.8 miles) at 19:26 and left at 19:28.
- It arrived at Milton Keynes (143.8 miles) at 20:27 and left at 20:29.
- It arrived in Euston (183.6 miles) at 21:00.
- It was five minutes late into Crewe and two minutes early at Euston.
Note.
- The route was via the Trent Valley Line and the train passed through Stafford, Colwich, Lichfield Trent Valley, Tamworth and Nuneaton.
- Liverpool and Euston had been timetabled at two hours and twenty minutes.
- This is an average speed of 78.7 mph.
- The Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two gives the fastest time before High Speed Two opens as two hours and three minutes.
- This will be an average speed of 89.6 mph.
This map clipped from the High Speed Two web site, shows the junction North of Lichfield, where High Speed Two connects to the Trent Valley Line through Stafford.
Note.
- High Speed Two runs North-South across the map.
- After the Junction by Fradley South, High Speed Two to Crewe and the North, is the branch to the East.
- The other branch connects to the Trent Valley Line at Handsacre junction.
- Trent Valley Line can be picked out North of Lichfield, where it passes through Lichfield Trent Valley station.
The Trent Valley Line is no Victorian double-track slow-speed bottleneck.
- The route between Rugby and Crewe is generally three or four tracks, with only one short stretch of double track, through Shugborough tunnel.
- The speed limit is generally 110 mph, with 90 mph at Shugborough.
- I wouldn’t be surprised to see Avanti West Coast’s Class 390 and Class 807 trains could be running at up to 140 mph on the route, if digital signalling were to be installed.
- This speed would probably be attained by High Speed Two trains.
London Euston and Stafford would only have under twenty miles of slower line and that could be 140 mph, so High Speed Two times on the route could be very fast.
This second map clipped from the High Speed Two web site, shows between High Speed Two’s two Birmingham stations and Lichfield.
Note.
- High Speed Two Phases 1 and 2a are shown in blue.
- High Speed Two Phase 2b is shown in orange.
- At the top of the map, can be seen the junction, where High Speed Two to the North splits, that was shown in the previous map.
- The large blue dot in the West at the bottom of the map, is Birmingham Curzon Street station.
- The other large blue dot is Birmingham International station.
- The three sections of High Speed Two to London, Birmingham Curzon Street and the North meet at a triangular junction between the two Birmingham stations.
- High Speed Two to the East Midlands, branches off to the East North of the triangular junction.
This third map clipped from the High Speed Two web site, shows between Lichfield and Crewe.
Note.
- High Speed Two Phase 2a is shown in blue.
- High Speed Two Phase 2b is shown in orange.
- Crewe is in the North-West corner of the map, where at the South end of the orange section.
- The junction at Lichfield is in the South-East corner of the map.
- The lighter blue route to the East, between the Lichfield junction and Crewe is the new tracks of High Speed Two.
- The darker blue route to the West, between the Lichfield junction and Crewe is the existing route of the Trent Valley Line and the West Coast Main Line.
- The Trent Valley Line joins the West Coast Main Line at Stafford.
These are a few thoughts and questions.
How Will Trains Go Between Birmingham Curzon Street And London?
Trains will use the triangular junction shown in the second map to go between the two Birmingham stations and then head South,
How Will Trains Go Between Birmingham Curzon Street And The North?
Trains will use the triangular junction shown in the second map to turn North and then take one of the two routes to the North; High Speed Two or Trent Valley Line/West Coast Main Line.
How Will Trains Go Between Birmingham Curzon Street And The North If High Speed Two Between Birmingham And The North Is Scrapped?
If High Speed Two is scrapped from the Northern point of the triangular junction to the North, there will be no way that trains could go North from Birmingham Curzon Street.
- The overcrowded Birmingham New Street station will still be the link to the North of England and Scotland for Birmingham.
- How would trains connect to the future branch to East Midlands Parkway, which connects just North of the triangular junction?
I suspect that a short stub will be built North of the triangular junction to connect to the Trent Valley Line, which is currently, the main route of trains between London and the North through the West Midlands, for trains that don’t go through Birmingham.
Trains Between London And Stafford
Currently, Avanti West Coast trains take around one hour and seventeen minutes between London and Stafford.
The Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two gives these times between London and Stafford.
- Fastest time before High Speed Two – one hour and seventeen minutes.
- Time after Phase 2a of High Speed Two opens – fifty-five minutes.
Note.
That is a time saving of twenty-two minutes.
High Speed Two Trains will use the link between the junction at Lichfield and the Trent Valley Line.
How Many Avanti West Coast Services Use The Trent Valley Line?
These trains use the Trent Valley Line.
- London and Holyhead – 8 tpd
- London and Liverpool Lime Street – 1 tph, which is planned to increase to 2 tph
- London and Manchester Piccadilly – 2 tph
- London and Blackpool North – 1 tpd
- London and Glasgow – 1 tph
Note.
- tpd is trains per day
- tph is trains per hour
This is roughly six tph.
Would It Be Possible To Finish High Speed Two At The Lichfield Junction And Connect It To The Trent Valley Line?
This is a repeat of the first map.
Note.
- High Speed Two runs North-South across the map.
- After the Junction by Fradley South, High Speed Two to Crewe and the North, is the branch to the East.
- The other branch connects to the Trent Valley Line at Handsacre junction.
- Trent Valley Line can be picked out North of Lichfield, where it passes through Lichfield Trent Valley station.
If the Eastern branch North from the junction were to be scrapped, all trains between London and North would go via Stafford.
As all these tracks are planned and must be at an advanced stage, that is ready for construction, I feel the route would be feasible.
It would have these benefits.
- Birmingham Curzon Street services and the North-West of England and the West of Scotland would be possible.
- Services between London and Stafford will be twenty-two minutes faster, than they are now.
- Time savings will also apply to services from London to Liverpool, Macclesfield, Manchester, Stoke-on-Trent and all stations between Crewe and Glasgow.
The capacity of the Trent Valley Line would be the limiting factor.
Time Savings Between Crewe And Preston
According to the Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two, after Phase 2a of High Speed Two opens, these will be the fastest times to Crewe and Preston.
- Crewe – 0:56
- Preston 1:18
Note.
- The fastest Preston service runs non-stop between Euston and Preston.
- Crewe and Preston are 51 miles apart.
A time of 22 minutes between Crewe and Preston, means the average speed is 139 mph.
Does this mean that High Speed Two will improve between Crewe and Preston to allow 140 mph non-stop running?
But 22 minutes is certainly an improvement on the current time between Crewe and Preston for Scottish trains of 40 minutes.
Time Savings Between Crewe And Liverpool
The upgrading of the line between might save another couple of minutes between Crewe and Weaver junction.
What Times Would Be Possible Via High Speed Two And The Trent Valley Line?
These times are based on the following.
- The twenty-two minute saving to Stafford, as all High Speed Two services to the North-West of England and the West of Scotland will go via Phase 1 of High Speed Two and Stafford.
- A saving of eighteen minutes will be applied to Scottish services because of savings between Crewe and Preston.
This would give these times in hours:minutes.
- Blackpool – 2:10
- Carlisle – 2:35
- Chester – 1:28
- Crewe – 1:08
- Glasgow – 3:50
- Holyhead – 3:10
- Lancaster – 2:03
- Liverpool Lime Street – 1:41
- Llandudno Junction – 2:24
- Macclesfield – 1:30
- Manchester Piccadilly via Crewe – 1:52
- Oxenholme – 1:54
- Preston – 1:46
- Runcorn 1:31
- Stafford – 0:55
- Stockport – 1:35
- Stoke-on-Trent – 1:10
- Warrington – 1:22
- Wigan 1:33
- Wilmslow – 1:25
I have calculated extra services to Blackpool and North Wales.
Adding The Lichfield And Crewe Section
Consider.
- My calculations indicate that London and Crewe will take 1:08.
- The Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two, after Phase 2a of High Speed Two opens, gives the fastest time to Crewe as 0:56.
This indicates that adding the section of High Speed Two between Lichfield and Crewe will save a further twelve minutes.
Conclusion
I strongly believe that an upgraded Trent Valley Line linked to a shortened High Speed Two at Lichfield could improve journey times between London, Birmingham and the North.
There are certainly savings to be made.
See Also
The Anonymous Widower 