High Speed Two To Lancaster
There has been a lot of speculation about the Northern end of High Speed Two, so I might as well add sort out a few facts and add a bit of speculation of my own.
The Current Lancaster Service
I shall look at the 07:30 train on the 29th September 2023.
- It was a nine-car Class 390 train or Pendolino, which left on time.
- Euston and Lancaster are 230 miles apart.
- The train passed Crewe at 09:59
- The train arrived at Warrington Bank Quay at 09:14 and left at 09:15.
- The train arrived at Wigan North Western at 09:25 and left at 09:26.
- The train arrived at Preston at 09:39 and left at 09:41.
- The train arrived at Lancaster at 09:55 and left at 09:57.
- The journey took two hours and 25 minutes
- The average speed was 95.2 mph.
- There is at least one train per hour (tph).
Lancaster Will Get Its Own High Speed Two Service
This graphic shows High Speed Two services after Phase 2b is completed.
Note.
- Lancaster and Liverpool share a pair of High Speed Two Classic Compatible trains, that will split and join at Crewe.
- The Lancaster service will stop at Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western and Preston, to the North of Crewe.
The Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two gives these times for trains from London after Phase 2a opens to Crewe.
- Crewe – 56 minutes
- Warrington Bank Quay – One hour and 20 minutes
- Wigan North Western – One hour and 34 minutes
- Preston – One hour and 18 minutes
- Lancaster – Two hours and 3 minutes
- Oxenholme – One hour and 56 minutes
- Carlisle – Two hours and 23 minutes
Note.
- The Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western and Lancaster times will apply to the direct Lancaster service.
- The Preston and Carlisle times apply to the non-stop Scottish service.
- Oxenholme will be reached with a change from London.
- Currently, Pendolinos travel between Crewe and Lancaster in an hour or a few minutes less.
I feel the Lancaster time is suspect and a better time would be around one hour and 52-56 minutes.
140 Mph Running Between Crewe And Preston
Consider.
- London Euston and Crewe is 56 minutes
- One hour and 18 minutes to Preston infers a time of 22 minutes between Crewe and Preston.
- Crewe and Preston is 51 miles.
This implies an average speed of 139 mph.
As the West Coast Main Line was built for 140 mph, when digital signalling was installed, this would appear to be feasible, once the signalling is upgraded.
It may also mean, that faster times are possible in services to Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western.
Crewe And Warrington Bank Quay
Consider.
- The distance is 24.1 miles
- HS2 will take 24 minutes with one acceleration and one deceleration, which probably take a maximum of 4 minutes in total.
- I explain the four minutes in High Speed Two To Crewe.
This gives an average speed of 72.3 mph.
Warrington Bank Quay And Wigan North Western
Consider.
- The distance is 11.7 miles
- HS2 will take 14 minutes with one acceleration and one deceleration, which probably take a maximum of 4 minutes in total.
This gives an average speed of 70.2 mph.
Wigan North Western And Lancaster
Consider.
- The distance is 36.1 miles
- HS2 will take 29 minutes with two accelerations and two decelerations, which probably take a maximum of 8 minutes in total.
- I will also allow a minute for the dwell time at Preston.
This gives an average speed of 108.3 mph.
Crewe And Lancaster
Consider.
- The distance is 72 miles
- HS2 will take 67 minutes with four accelerations and four decelerations, which probably take a maximum of 16 minutes in total.
- I will also allow a minute for the dwell times at Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan and Preston.
This gives an average speed of 90.6 mph.
I now feel happier about two hours and three minutes between London and Lancaster.
Conclusion
The West Coast Main Line needs upgrading to full in-cab digital signalling as soon as possible.
Once working it would give journey time savings for everybody travelling on the line.
See Also
Could High Speed Two Finish At Lichfield?
High Speed Two To Crewe
There has been a lot of speculation about the Northern end of High Speed Two, so I might as well add sort out a few facts and add a bit of speculation of my own.
Sample Times Between London And Crewe
These are selected times from the 27th September 2023.
- 07:30 – Glasgow Non-Stop – 1:29
- 07:33 – Manchester Piccadilly – 1:37 – Stops at Stafford
- 07:43 – Liverpool Lime Street – 1:40 – Stops at Milton Keynes
- 08:30 – Glasgow Non-Stop – 1:29
- 08:33 – Manchester Piccadilly – 1:37 – Stops at Stafford
- 08:43 – Liverpool Lime Street – 1:40 – Stops at Milton Keynes
- 09:02 – Holyhead – 1:40 – Stop at Stafford
- 15:02 – Chester – 1:40 – Stops at Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley and Stafford
Note.
- The 07:30 and 08:30 Glasgow services appears to be pathed for one of the Class 390 Pendolino electric trains and were run by Pendolinos.
- The 07:33 and 08:33 Manchester services appears to be pathed for one of the Pendolino electric trains and were run by Pendolinos.
- The 07:43 and 08:43 Liverpool services appears to be pathed for one of the new Class 807 electric trains, but were run by Pendolinos.
- The 15:02 Chester service appears to be pathed for one of the new Class 805 bi-mode trains.
- All services except the Glasgow services stop at Crewe.
- As London Euston and Crewe is 158 miles, the non-stop Glasgow services average 107 mph, the one-stop Manchester service averages 98 mph and the one-stop Liverpool service averages 95 mph.
I have some further thoughts.
How Long Does A Stop Take?
I’ve looked at some stops of Glasgow, Liverpool and Manchester services
Crewe
Looking at timings between Weaver Junction and Norton Bridge, I have found the following times.
- Glasgow-Euston – 23 minutes
- Liverpool-Euston – 28 minutes
Note.
- Manchester services don’t go through Weaver Junction.
- Weaver Junction and Norton Bridge are respectively North and South of Crewe.
- The Liverpool service stops at Crewe, where it has a dwell time of two minutes.
- The Glasgow service goes straight through Crewe.
The Crewe stop takes a total of 5 minutes of which 3 minutes are deceleration and acceleration to and from linespeed.
Stafford
Looking at timings between Norton Bridge and Colwich, I have found the following times.
- Glasgow-Euston – 7½ minutes
- Liverpool-Euston – 7½ minutes
- Manchester -Euston – 14 minutes
Note.
- Norton Bridge and Colwich are respectively North and South of Stafford.
- The Manchester service stops at Stafford, where it has a dwell time of two minutes.
- The Glasgow and Liverpool services go straight through Stafford.
The Stafford stop takes a total of 6½ minutes of which 4½ minutes are deceleration and acceleration to and from linespeed.
Milton Keynes
Looking at timings between Weedon and Bletchley, I have found the following times.
- Glasgow-Euston – 11½ minutes
- Liverpool-Euston – 16 minutes
- Manchester -Euston – 12½ minutes
Note.
- Weedon and Bletchley are respectively North and South of Milton Keynes.
- The Liverpool service stops at Milton Keynes, where it has a dwell time of one minute.
- The Glasgow and Manchester services go straight through Milton Keynes.
The Milton Keynes stop takes a total of 4 minutes of which 3 minutes are deceleration and acceleration to and from linespeed.
Average Speeds Between Crewe And London
London Ruston and Crewe is 158 miles according to Real Time Trains.
So what would times would various average speeds deliver?
- 100 mph – 95 minutes
- 110 mph – 86 minutes
- 120 mph – 79 minutes
- 125 mph – 76 minutes
- 130 mph – 73 minutes
- 140 mph – 68 minutes
Obviously, any average speed with over 125 mph running, will need full digital signalling.
Liverpool And London In Two Hours
Tucked away beside the Grand Union Sets Out Stirling Ambitions article in the December 2022 Edition of Modern Railways is a report on Avanti West Coast’s application for a second service between Euston and Liverpool.
This is said.
Avanti West Coast has applied for access rights for its second hourly Euston to Liverpool service, starting from December 2023, although a phased introduction of the new service is likely. This would make use of Avanti’s new fleet of 10×7-car Class 807 Hitachi EMUs, which are expected to enter service from Autumn 2023. The ‘807s’ would be deployed on the current hourly Liverpool service, on which a call at Liverpool South Parkway would be added. (provision is made for this in the December 2022 timetable.).
Pendolinos would then operate the second service each hour, calling at Lichfield Trent Valley and Tamworth.
A linespeed project is in progress to raise the permissible speed for non-tilting trains on the West Coast Main Line, and Avanti’s new Hitachi trains will take advantage of this.
I’ll take a quick look at the Crewe and Runcorn section.
- It is 22.5 miles.
- It takes 19 minutes.
- That is an average speed of 71 mph.
- Crewe and Weaver Junction has a speed limit of at least 110 mph
- Runcorn and Weaver Junction has a speed limit of at least 90 mph for most of the way.
- If with their superior performance, the new Class 807 trains could average 90 mph between Crewe and Runcorn, they would take 15 minutes.
- Achieving the 90 mph average may need a bit of track realignment and some signaling changes.
The four minutes saved would be enough to handle the extra stop at Liverpool South Parkway.
Consider.
- Currently, Pendolino trains do Liverpool and Crewe in 38 minutes, which includes the stop at Runcorn.
- My calculation with the Class 807 trains, shows that with a bit of extra signalling, the new trains could do Liverpool and Crewe in 38 minutes with the two stops.
- The stop at Crewe will subtract 5 minutes from the base journey time.
- The stop at Milton Keynes will subtract 4 minutes from the base journey time.
This means the base journey time between Crewe and London will be 73 minutes.
This would indicate that the trains would be running at 130 mph to achieve the two hours.
But there are five accelerations and five decelerations on a journey between London and Liverpool and the new Class 807 trains are the Lotuses of Hitachi’s family of AT-300 trains; lightweight and powerful.
Suppose they could save thirty seconds for each acceleration and deceleration.
The base journey time between Crewe and London will be 78 minutes.
This would indicate that the trains would be running at over 120 mph to achieve the two hours.
I certainly feel, that Liverpool and London in two hours is certainly possible using the new Class 807 trains.
London and Crewe with two stops would be times at one hour and twelve minutes.
But what about the Pendolinos?
- My last return trip from Liverpool did a practice call at Liverpool South Parkway and still arrived in London a few minutes early.
- The Pendolinos will still benefit from any improvements, between Crewe and Runcorn, which could reduce the Liverpool and Crewe time from 38 minutes to 34 minutes.
- The stop at Crewe will subtract 5 minutes from the base journey time.
- The stops at Lichfield Trent Valley and Tamworth will both subtract 4 minutes from the base journey time.
This means the base journey time between Crewe and London will be 73 minutes, which is the same as for the Class 807 trains.
This would indicate that the trains would be running at 130 mph to achieve the two hours.
Could this average speed be achieved by the selective application of full digital signalling, perhaps on the Trent Valley Line?
But it does appear to me, that the Pendolinos can get very close to two hours between London and Liverpool.
London and Crewe with three stops would be times at one hour and sixteen minutes.
Crewe And London Non-Stop
Consider.
- Pendolinos between London and Glasgow, go non-stop between London and Crewe.
- I have calculated that Pendolinos between London and Liverpool, will take one hour and sixteen minutes with three stops between London and Crewe.
- The three stops take a total of thirteen minutes.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see London and Glasgow Pendolinos take one hour and three minutes between London and Crewe.
This would knock twenty-six minutes off journey times between London and Glasgow.
Conclusion
I believe that with relatively minor improvements on the West Coast Main Line and the Liverpool branch, the following can be achieved.
- Liverpool and London can be around two hours with new Class 807 trains or Pendolinos.
- Liverpool and London services can increase their calls in the Midlands.
- London and Glasgow services can be nearly half-an-hour faster.
- The fastest London and Crewe services could be just over an hour using Pendolinos.
I also believe that the only serious infrastructure needed is some track realignment and some updated signalling.
See Also
Could High Speed Two Finish At Lichfield?
High Speed Two To Manchester
There has been a lot of speculation about the Northern end of High Speed Two, so I might as well add sort out a few facts and add a bit of speculation of my own.
The Current Manchester Piccadilly Services
Currently, there are three trains per hour (tph) between London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly.
The services stop as follows.
- Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport
- Nuneaton, Stoke-on-Trent and Stockport
- Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport
Note.
- One service goes via Crewe.
- Two services go via Stoke-on-Trent.
- All services go via Stockport.
- A London and Manchester Piccadilly train could go via Milton Keynes Central, Nuneaton, Rugby, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport.
- A London and Manchester Piccadilly train could go via Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport.
The two trains detailed would mean that Manchester wouldn’t lose any connectivity.
I would expect that Manchester Piccadilly needs at least three tph to and from London.
This graphic shows High Speed Two services after Phase 2b is completed.
Note.
- Services shown in blue are run by High Speed Two Full Size trains.
- Services shown in yellow are run by High Speed Two Classic-Compatible trains.
- Full Size Services will only run to Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly after Phase 2b is completed to Manchester Piccadilly.
- Classic-Compatible Services will be able to run to to Manchester Piccadilly after Phase 2a is completed.
- Two London and Manchester Piccadilly trains will call at just Old Oak Common and Manchester Airport.
- A third London and Manchester Piccadilly train will call at Old Oak Common, Birmingham International and Manchester Airport.
- Two Birmingham Curzon Street and Manchester Piccadilly trains will call at just Manchester Airport.
- Despite Wilmslow and Stockport being shown in the list of stations on the left hand side of the graphic, no High Speed Two services appear to call at the two stations.
The graphic of High Speed Two services also shows these Full-Size services to Manchester Piccadilly.
- Three tph to London Euston
- Two tph to Birmingham Curzon Street
Some or all of these services will surely be run by High Speed Two Classic-Compatible trains.
What services will run to Manchester between the opening of Phase 2a and the opening of Phase 2b?
I will now give some possibilities for services.
London and Manchester Piccadilly Via Crewe, Wilmslow And Stockport
I shall look at the 07:33 train to Manchester Piccadilly on the 20th September 2023.
- It was a service via Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport
- It was a nine-car Class 390 train or Pendolino, which left on time.
- Euston and Manchester Piccadilly are 188.9 miles apart.
- The train called at Crewe at 09:08 and left at 09:10.
- The average speed between London Euston and Crewe is 70.7 mph.
- The train arrived in Manchester Piccadilly on time at 09:44.
- The journey took two hours and 11 minutes
- The average speed was 86.5 mph.
- The Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly section is 30.9 miles and the train is scheduled to take 34 minutes.
- The average speed between Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly is 54.5 mph.
- The example train slows past Crewe because of two stops at Wilmslow and Stockport.
When Phase 2a of High Speed Two opens a replacement for this service via Crewe, could operate as follows.
- It could use High Speed Two between and Crewe.
- It could use the current route between Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly.
- It would probably use a 200 metre long High Speed Two Classic-Compatible trains.
- I wouldn’t be surprised, that the current Pendolino service between Euston and Manchester Piccadilly via Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport was retired.
- The new High Speed Two service could take over the path currently used by the current Pendolino service, between Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly.
- The train could stop at Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport as required.
- If it stopped at Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport, it would restore some of the connectivity to smaller places.
According to the Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two, these will be the timings.
- London Euston and Crewe – 56 minutes
- London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly Phase 2a – One hour and 30 minutes
- London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly Phase 2b – One hour and 11 minutes
From these figures and the times of the 07:33, I can deduce these journey times for trains via Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport.
- Currently, Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly takes 34 minutes.
- High Speed Two after Phase 2a will also take 34 minutes.
I am surprised that sectional timings on this section of the West Coast Main Line are the same as current timings. Digital signalling and the faster acceleration and deceleration of the new trains, are quite likely to decrease times.
Because they are both 34 minutes, does that mean that services will stop at Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport?
London and Macclesfield Via Stafford And Stoke-on-Trent
This map of High Speed Two in North West England was captured from the interactive map on the High Speed Two web site.
Note.
- The map dates from around October 2020.
- The current West Coast Main Line (WCML) and Phase 2a of High Speed Two are shown in blue.
- Phase 2b of High Speed Two is shown in orange.
- The main North-South route, which is shown in blue, is the WCML passing through Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western as it goes North.
- The Western Branch, which is shown in blue, is the Liverpool Branch of the WCML, which serves Runcorn and Liverpool.
- High Speed Two, which is shown in orange, takes a faster route between Crewe and Wigan North Western.
- The Eastern Branch, which is shown in orange, is the Manchester Branch of High Speed Two, which serves Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly.
- The route in the East, which is shown in blue, is the Macclesfield Branch of High Speed Two, which serves Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent and Macclesfield.
The route of Northern Powerhouse Rail between Manchester Airport and Liverpool has still to be finalised.
The London and Macclesfield service is as follows.
- There will be one tph
- There are intermediate stops at Stafford and Stoke-on-Trent.
- Macclesfield has a long electrified bay platform, which looks like it will take a 200 m High Speed Two Classic-Compatible train.
- Macclesfield Station And High Speed Two has pictures of the station.
- Four tph operate between Stoke-on-Trent and Manchester Piccadilly via Macclesfield.
- Timings from London would be 55 minutes to Stafford, 70 minutes to Stoke-on-Trent and 90 minutes to Macclesfield.
In some ways, I was surprised about this High Speed Two service.
But it does give an easy connection to Stafford and Stoke-on-Trent.
London and Manchester Piccadilly via Macclesfield, Stafford And Stoke-on-Trent
Currently, Avanti West Coast run a service between London and Manchester which runs as follows.
- It calls at Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport
- It also passes through Watford Junction, Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley.
- It could pass through Stafford.
- It would mean that Stafford and Stoke-on-Trent were served by 2 tph.
- It is run by a Pendolino.
- It has a frequency of 1 tph.
- The current service takes two hours and 6 minutes.
- A few minutes would be added for each extra stop.
I believe it could be a very useful service.
I wonder if it could be run as a complimentary service to High Speed Two to serve more places on the route.
A Second High Speed Two Service Between London and Manchester Piccadilly Via Crewe, Wilmslow And Stockport
So far, I have mapped out three possible services.
- High Speed Two – London and Manchester Piccadilly Via Crewe, Wilmslow And Stockport – One hour and thirty minutes
- High Speed Two – London and Macclesfield Via Stafford and Stoke – One hour and thirty minutes
- Pendolino – London and Manchester Piccadilly Via Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport – Two hours and 6 minutes plus 4 minutes for each extra stop.
I suspect that four tph could be a good frequency.
The simplest extra service would probably be another High Speed Two London and Manchester Piccadilly Via Crewe, Wilmslow And Stockport.
But it could be another Pendolino service to serve more places.
I believe a service pattern could be arranged with these features.
- Major cities and towns between London and Manchester have at least two tph.
- A larger number of towns and cities have at least one tph.
Note that many stations on the route already have Pendolino services.
Phase 2b Would Be The Ultimate Solution
Phase 2b which will involve a tunnel via Manchester Airport to new platforms in Manchester Piccadilly could be the ultimate solution.
Phase 2b is also needed so that full-size High Speed Two trains can be run to Manchester Piccadilly.
But it will be difficult, expensive and disruptive to build.
Conclusion
I believe it could be easy to plan four services between London and Manchester Piccadilly or Macclesfield.
- High Speed Two Full-Size train – London and Manchester Piccadilly Via Crewe, Wilmslow And Stockport – One hour and eleven minutes
- High Speed Two Classic-Compatible train – London and Macclesfield Via Stafford and Stoke – One hour and thirty minutes
- High Speed Two Full-Size train – London and Manchester Piccadilly Via Crewe, Wilmslow And Stockport – One hour and eleven minutes
- Pendolino – London and Manchester Piccadilly Via Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport – Two hours and 6 minutes plus 4 minutes for each extra stop.
Note.
Services 1 and 3 are identical, but don’t need to be.
Service 4 could be run by a High Speed Two Classic-Compatible train.
See Also
Could High Speed Two Finish At Lichfield?
High Speed Two To Wigan
There has been a lot of speculation about the Northern end of High Speed Two, so I might as well add sort out a few facts and add a bit of speculation of my own.
The Current Wigan North Western Service
I shall look at the 08:30 train to Glasgow on the 20th September 2023.
- It was an eleven-car Class 390 train or Pendolino, which left on time.
- Euston and Wigan North Western are 193.8 miles apart.
- Trains call at only Warrington Bank Quay
- The train passed Crewe at 09:59
- The train called at Warrington Bank Quay at 10:14 and left at 10:15.
- The train arrived at Wigan North Western at 10:25 on time.
- The journey took one hour and 55 minutes
- The average speed was 101.1 mph.
- The Crewe and Wigan North Western section is 35.8 miles and the train is scheduled to take 26 minutes.
- The average speed between Crewe and Wigan North Western is 82.6 mph.
The train slows past Crewe because of the stop at Warrington Bank Quay.
London Euston And Wigan North Western After Phase 2a Of High Speed Two Opens
According to the Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two, these are the timings.
- London Euston and Crewe – 56 minutes
- London Euston and Warrington Bank Quay – One hour and 20 minutes
- London Euston and Wigan North Western – One hour and 34 minutes
From these figures and the times of the 08:30, I can deduce these journey times.
- Currently, Crewe and Warrington Bank Quay takes 16 minutes and High Speed Two will take 24 minutes
- Currently, Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western takes 10 minutes and High Speed Two will take 14 minutes
- Currently, Crewe and Wigan North Western takes 26 minutes and High Speed Two will take 38 minutes
I am surprised that sectional timings on this short section of the West Coast Main Line are slower than current timings. Digital signalling and the faster acceleration and deceleration of the new trains, are more likely to decrease times, than increase them.
London Euston And Preston After Phase 2a Of High Speed Two Opens
According to the Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two, these are the timings.
- London Euston and Crewe – 56 minutes
- London Euston and Warrington Bank Quay – One hour and 20 minutes
- London Euston and Wigan North Western – One hour and 34 minutes
- London Euston and Preston – One hour and 18 minutes
This graphic shows High Speed Two services.
Note that Preston gets two non-stop services to and from London and another with stops at Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western, and a train split/join at Crewe.
The one hour and 18 minutes surely applies to one or both of the non-stop services.
140 Mph Running Between Crewe And Preston
Consider.
- London Euston and Crewe is 56 minutes
- One hour and 18 minutes to Preston infers a time of 22 minutes between Crewe and Preston.
- Crewe and Preston is 51 miles.
This implies an average speed of 139 mph.
As the West Coast Main Line was built for 140 mph, when digital signalling was installed, this would appear to be feasible, once the signalling is upgraded.
It may also mean, that faster times are possible in services to Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western.
Consider.
- Crewe and Wigan North Western is 35.8 miles
- High Speed Two will take 38 minutes
- The average speed between Crewe and Wigan North Western will be just 56.5 mph.
But if it could run at 140 mph mph between Crewe and Wigan North Western, the base time would be just over 15 minutes.
To this time must be added two full station stops and the time it takes to split or join.
With the superior acceleration and deceleration of the High Speed Two trains and their level of automation, these operations will not take 23 minutes.
I believe that this means that minutes can be saved on services to Lancaster, Liverpool Lime Street, Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western.
London Euston And Wigan North Western After Phase 2b Of High Speed Two Opens
There will be no changes as the full-size High Speed Two trains are not planned to run to the North of Crewe.
See Also
High Speed Two Crosses The West Coast Main Line To The East of Berkswell Station
This map from OpenRailwayMap shows where High Speed Two crosses the West Coast Main Line to the East of Berkswell station.
Note.
- The double orange tracks are the West Coast Main Line.
- Berkswell station is in the North-West corner of the map.
- The dotted red line is the future track of High Speed Two.
I took these pictures today, as my train returned from Birmingham New Street station.
Trains at this point going towards Tile Hill, will be a good point to observe the construction of High Speed Two. Sit in a window seat on the left hand side of the train.
High Speed Two To Liverpool
There has been a lot of speculation about the Northern end of High Speed Two, so I might as well add sort out a few facts and add a bit of speculation of my own.
The Current Liverpool Service
I shall look at the 08:43 train on the 18th September 2023.
- It was a nine-car Class 390 train or Pendolino, which left on time.
- Euston and Liverpool Lime Street are 193.7 miles apart.
- The train called at Milton Keynes Central, Crewe and Runcorn
- The train arrived at Crewe at 10:24 and left at 10:26.
- The train arrived at Runcorn at 10:43 and left at 10:44.
- The train arrived at Liverpool Lime Street at 11:04 on time.
- The journey took two hours and 21 minutes
- The average speed was 82.4 mph.
- The Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street section is 39.7 miles and the train is scheduled to take forty minutes.
- The average speed between Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street is almost exactly 60 mph.
- The slower average speed is because the train is slowing for a gradual stop in Liverpool and the only fast section is the 110 mph section between Crewe and Weaver Junction, where the Liverpool Branch leaves the West Coast Main Line.
- There is one train per hour (tph).
There are probably only limited ways that time can be saved between Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street.
- The West Coast Main Line between Crewe and Weaver Junction takes twelve minutes and has an operating speed of 110 mph, so saving a few minutes might be possible, by upgrading the speed on this line with digital signalling to allow 140 mph running.
- It might be possible to save a couple of minutes at the Runcorn stop by using the superior performance of the new Class 807 or High Speed Two trains.
- The slowing down into and accelerating out of Liverpool might be improved by digital signalling and trains with better performance.
It should be noted that Liverpool Lime Street station was recently remodelled to improve operation of the station and the tracks connecting it to Runcorn.
I would be fairly sure that Network Rail and Avanti West Coast have got Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street times to a minimum. As this route will become part of High Speed Two, I suspect that Network Rail/Avanti have done extensive computer simulations of the route, to make sure they get it as quick and efficient as possible.
The New Class 807 Trains
The Class 807 trains, which enter service this year or early next, are the Lotuses in Hitachi’s AT 300 family of high speed trains.
- They are electric only and have no heavy diesel engines or traction batteries.
- They don’t even have emergency batteries for when the catenary fails.
- They have a redesigned nose. Is it more aerodynamic?
- As with all the other Hitachi high speed trains, they are capable of 125 mph, or 140 mph if the signalling permits.
These trains will undoubtedly have faster acceleration and deceleration and could probably knock minutes off the timings at all the stops.
A Second Hourly Train To Liverpool
Tucked away beside the Grand Union Sets Out Stirling Ambitions article in the December 2022 Edition of Modern Railways is a report on Avanti West Coast’s application for a second service between Euston and Liverpool.
This is said.
Avanti West Coast has applied for access rights for its second hourly Euston to Liverpool service, starting from December 2023, although a phased introduction of the new service is likely. This would make use of Avanti’s new fleet of 10×7-car Class 807 Hitachi EMUs, which are expected to enter service from Autumn 2023. The ‘807s’ would be deployed on the current hourly Liverpool service, on which a call at Liverpool South Parkway would be added. (provision is made for this in the December 2022 timetable.).
Pendolinos would then operate the second service each hour, calling at Lichfield Trent Valley and Tamworth.
A linespeed project is in progress to raise the permissible speed for non-tilting trains on the West Coast Main Line, and Avanti’s new Hitachi trains will take advantage of this.
Note.
- The current Liverpool service stops at Milton Keynes Central, Crewe and Runcorn.
- Liverpool South Parkway station is too short for the longest Pendolinos or Class 390/1 trains.
- When the second service is implemented will it stop at Milton Keynes Central, Crewe, Runcorn and Liverpool South Parkway?
- Will the Pendolinos only stop at Lichfield Trent Valley and Tamworth?
Will Avanti West Coast use the trains to take advantage of their strengths?
- The new lighter Class 807 trains will use their superior acceleration and deceleration to execute fast stops at more stations.
- The shorter Class 807 trains will call at Liverpool South Parkway.
- The current Pendolinos will use their tilt to run as fast as possible between London Euston and Liverpool.
I also suspect that Avanti West Coast will adjust the stopping pattern to attract passengers. I read somewhere, that a stop at Nuneaton to connect to Leicester, Peterborough, Cambridge and Stansted Airport, was a possibility.
More Details Of A Second Hourly Train To Liverpool – 30th September 2023.
Real Time Trains is now showing the details of the second service between London Euston and Liverpool.
These are the future timings of the 09:13 train from Liverpool.
- Liverpool – Leave at 09:13
- Runcorn – Arrive at 09:28 and leave at 09:29½
- Crewe – Arrive at 09:49 and leave at 09:56
- Stafford – Arrive at 10:14½ and leave at 10:16½
- Lichfield Trent Valley – Arrive at 10:29½ and leave at 10:31½
- Tamworth – Arrive at 10:36½ and leave at 10:38½
- Nuneaton – Arrive at 10:49 and leave at 10:51
- Milton Keynes Central – Arrive at 11:21 and leave at 11:23
- Euston – Arrive at 11.59
Note.
- This service has not been activated yet.
- It is pathed for a Class 80x train.
- There are seven stops.
- It will take two hours and 46 minutes.
- Liverpool and Crewe will take 36 minutes.
- There are two other inactivated services like this running through Birmingham and Northampton.
Could these services have been timetabled to test connectivity?
High Speed Two Classic Compatible Trains
These High Speed Two Classic Compatible trains are to be built for High Speed Two.
- They will be able to run on both High Speed Two and current high speed lines like the East Coast Main Line and the West Coast Main Line.
- They will have an operating speed of 205 mph on High Speed Two.
- They will be able to operate at appropriate speeds on existing high speed lines. Typically, that is 125 mph, but with full digital signalling that is 140 mph.
- They are two hundred metres long and are sixty metres shorter than an eleven-car Pendolino.
- They are being built by a Hitachi-Alstom joint venture.
This document on the Government web site is the Train Technical Specification for High Speed Two Classic-Compatible Trains.
Introducing The High Speed Two Classic Compatible Trains Into Service
Consider.
- London Euston and Liverpool Lime Street services can be run by eleven-car Pendolinos.
- It looks like after the introduction of the second service between London Euston and Liverpool Lime Street is introduced, it will be run by Pendolinos and it could be a two-stop service.
- The High Speed Two Classic Compatible trains should be able to run any service currently run by an eleven-car Pendolino.
So will Avanti West Coast use this second hourly London Euston and Liverpool Lime Street service to introduce the new High Speed Two Classic Compatible trains into public service?
- It would make sure the trains and existing track and signals were fully debugged.
- It would inform the public that High Speed Two is on its way.
- It would be good marketing for High Speed Two.
- They might shave a few minutes off journey times.
- It could use all the existing infrastructure.
- It will provide work for Alstom in Derby.
I feel Avanti West Coast just might!
London Euston And Liverpool Lime Street Before Phase 2a Of High Speed Two Opens
According to the Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two, these are the fastest timings.
- London Euston and Crewe – One hour and 30 minutes
- London Euston and Runcorn – One hour and 53 minutes
- London Euston and Liverpool Lime Street – Two hours and 3 minutes
Currently, the fastest London and Liverpool Lime Street trains take two hours and 21 minutes, so are the Class 807 trains going to be eighteen minutes faster?
From these figures and the times of the 0843, I can deduce these journey times.
- Currently, Crewe and Runcorn takes 17 minutes and the Class 807 train will take 23 minutes
- Currently, Runcorn and Liverpool Lime Street takes 20 minutes and the Class 807 train will take 10 minutes
- Currently, Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street takes 38 minutes and the Class 807 train will take 33 minutes
It looks like there may be slight problems with Wikipedia’s figures. But they were published before Avanti West Coast had run a Class 807 train between Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street. I think we’ll have to wait and see what turns up on Saturday, the 9th of December 2023, when the timetables change.
But I do feel now that the Class 807 trains will achieve London Euston and Liverpool Lime Street in two hours and three minutes.
London Euston And Liverpool Lime Street After Phase 2a Of High Speed Two Opens
According to the Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two, these are the timings.
- London Euston and Crewe – 56 minutes
- London Euston and Runcorn – One hour and 14 minutes
- London Euston and Liverpool Lime Street – One hour and 32 minutes
From these figures and the times of the 0843, I can deduce these journey times.
- Currently, Crewe and Runcorn takes 17 minutes and High Speed Two will take 18 minutes
- Currently, Runcorn and Liverpool Lime Street takes 20 minutes and High Speed Two will take 18 minutes
- Currently, Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street takes 38 minutes and High Speed Two will take 36 minutes
There doesn’t seem to be much of a saving between today’s Pendolino and High Speed Two between Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street.
Could it be that the work to improve Liverpool Lime Street station and its approaches a few years ago sorted out a lot of problems and Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street is now almost to the standard needed for High Speed Two?
If savings are made anywhere by High Speed Two, it could be between Runcorn and Liverpool Lime Street.
Looking at the operating speeds on OpenRailwayMap, there appears to be a 30 mph section of track for a couple of miles out of Liverpool Lime Street, which includes a sharp curve.
This Google Map shows the approaches to Lime Street station.
Note.
- The tracks across the top of the map are the main electrified Liverpool and Manchester tracks.
- The building in the middle is Alstom Traincare’s Liverpool Depot.
- The line to Runcorn enters the map in the South-East corner and curves around the depot to join the tracks into Lime Street station.
- The operating speed gradually reduces from 30 mph on this map to less than 15 mph in Lime Street station.
Perhaps, this 30 mph section is to be improved to gain the couple of minutes.
I also think, that savings could be possible at Runcorn station.
If when the second service starts, the Pendolinos don’t stop at Runcorn, that would save a few minutes.
The Class 807 and the High Speed Two Classic Compatible trains with their superior acceleration and deceleration could save a couple of minutes in the stop at Runcorn.
I very much feel that as the Pendolinos manage to achieve Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street in 38 minutes, that Pendolinos on the second service, Class 807 and the High Speed Two Classic Compatible trains, will all manage 36 minutes or less on the route.
London Euston And Liverpool Lime Street After Phase 2b Of High Speed Two Opens
There will be no changes as the full-size High Speed Two trains are not planned to run into Liverpool Lime Street.
Conclusion
It looks to me, that the Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street leg of High Speed Two is more or less complete.
Times between London and Liverpool will be as follows.
- Before High Speed Two Phase 2a – 2 hours and 3 minutes
- After High Speed Two Phase 2a – 1 hour and 32 minutes
- After High Speed Two Phase 2b – 1 hour and 32 minutes
I believe that for many this will be fast enough, especially as it’s nearly complete.
See Also
Could High Speed Two Finish At Lichfield?
Derby Alstom Train Factory Jobs Fear As Orders Dry Up
The title of this post, is the same as that of this article on the BBC.
This is the sub-heading.
Derby City Council is seeking talks with train builder Alstom over reports it could be about to lay off workers.
These two paragraphs introduce the story.
The firm’s Litchurch Lane site is the only UK train factory able to design, build, engineer and test trains for domestic and export markets.
About 2,000 people work at the factory but the firm says its current order book only runs until early 2024.
This could be another serious problem for High Speed Two.
Could LNER Use High Speed Two Classic-Compatible Trains?
In LNER Seeks 10 More Bi-Modes, I discuss how LNER are needing ten more bi-mode trains to expand their services.
Consider.
- One of LNER’s predecessors used to run Eurostar trains between Kings Cross and Leeds
- A High Speed Two Classic-Compatible trains are 200 metres long, as against the 233.7 metres of a nine-car Class 801 train.
- High Speed Two Classic-Compatible trains will run on the East Coast Main Line, when High Speed Two fully opens.
- London to Doncaster, Edinburgh, Leeds, Newcastle and York are all fully electrified routes.
So if all these fully-electric routes, were to be run using High Speed Two Classic-Compatible trains, this would release a number of Class 800 and Class 801 trains, which could be converted to bi-modes or battery-electric variants.
London and Edinburgh In Three-And-A-Half Hours
This is a paragraph from the Wikipedia entry for the InterCity 225 train.
The InterCity 225 was designed to achieve a peak service speed of 140 mph (225 km/h); during a test run in 1989 on Stoke Bank between Peterborough and Grantham, an InterCity 225 was recorded at a speed of 162 mph (260.7 km/h). Its high speed capabilities were again demonstrated via a 3hr 29mins non-stop run between London and Edinburgh on 26 September 1991. British regulations have since required in-cab signalling on any train running at speeds above 125 mph (201 km/h) preventing such speeds from being legally attained in regular service. Thus, except on High Speed 1, which is equipped with cab signalling, British signalling does not allow any train, including the InterCity 225, to exceed 125 mph (201 km/h) in regular service, due to the impracticality of correctly observing lineside signals at high speed.
If in-cab digital signalling were to be installed between London and Edinburgh, I believe that the three-and-a-half hour timing can be regularly achieved by a High Speed Two Classic-Compatible train.
I also believe that at least one train per hour (tph) between London and Edinburgh could achieve the three-and-a-half hour timing.
High Speed Two are promising a 3:48 time between London and Edinburgh.
It could be a Lumo-squasher!
A one tph service would need eight trains, but would release eight nine-car Class 801 trains.
Euston and Glasgow
This might be another route, where High Speed Two Classic-Compatible trains could be used.
Conclusion
LNER gets some more trains and Derby gets more work.
But the biggest benefits would be that, the trains would get a thorough testing before High Speed Two opens and passengers would get a view of the shape of things to come.
Signalling Team Trials Hydrogen Power
The title of this post, is the same as that of this article on Railway Gazette.
These two paragraphs outline the project.
The use of hydrogen to provide power for staff welfare compounds and to recharge battery tools and electric vehicles has been tested by Colas Rail UK’s signalling team during a project in the Gloucester area.
H-Power Tower fuel cell stacks designed by AFC Energy to replace diesel generators at off-grid construction sites were used to provide power for Eco-Cabins supplied by Sunbelt Rental. The H-Towers were also used to recharge battery-operated equipment and electric-hybrid vehicles.
There has been a large saving in carbon emission during the work.
Whilst living in the Suffolk countryside for nearly forty years, we had three major power outages.
The first was the smallest and Eastern Electricity or whoever it was around 1980, needed to change the transformer that fed the village where we lived. So a diesel generator was plugged in and it fed the village, whilst the new transformer was connected.
Then in the Great Storm of 1987, where we were without power for fourteen days until a load of happy foreigners from the other side of Offa’s Dyke, got the system up and singing again. I think today, that waiting two weeks to be reconnected would be unacceptable. Although the problems in 1987, were more down to the considerable amount of damage in Suffolk.
The last time, the power went just as we were going to bed on a summer evening.
We woke to find that the power had been restored.
The manner of the restoration was a textbook case of how power outages can be solved.
- Our house and the farm buildings around it, were fed from a transformer up a pole in the hedge by the drive.
- A driver who had known what they were doing had backed a full-size articulated lorry into the field alongside the transformer.
- Inside the trailer was a diesel generator and this had been connected to the transformer.
- When I investigated early in the morning, an engineer appeared from inside the trailer and asked if everything was OK.
- I said it was and asked a few technical questions.
- It turned out, that someone had brought the overhead cables down, whilst moving a load of straw near the prison.
So as our house was on one end of the cable that connected a few villages and farms to the grid, by temporarily connecting their mobile generator to the transformer everybody could be reconnected until the damage done near the prison could be repaired.
How long will it be before emergencies like these are handled by generators powered by hydrogen rather than diesel?
In HS2 Smashes Carbon Target, I describe how High Speed Two are making use of hydrogen electricity generators.
In UK Consortium To Develop Mobile Hydrogen Refuelling For Construction Sites, I talked about a UK government project to develop the hydrogen refuelling technology for construction sites. This would also work for the refuelling of emergency generators.
I can envisage the development of a series of zero-carbon hydrogen-powered trucks with onboard hydrogen generators of different sizes.
Conclusion
Hydrogen will bring a revolution in how we provide power on construction sites, in emergencies and in remote areas.
Lord Bamford: We’re Too Mesmerised By Musk — Here’s Why I’m Building A Hydrogen JCB
The title of this post, is the same as that of this article in the Sunday Times.
This is the sub-heading.
JCB’s Lord Bamford has spent £100m on a hydrogen engine. Tesla’s tech won’t suit everyone, he tells Jim Armitage
These are my thoughts.
The Need For Zero-Carbon Construction Equipment
Construction sites can be dangerous places and in addition to the obvious dangers, there are hidden pollutants in the atmosphere on sites.
Health and Safety will surely demand an improvement in air quality on construction sites for the protection of the workforce and nearby residents.
If JCB can produce zero-carbon construction equipment, then whether it is electric or hydrogen, this will be to their advantage.
High Speed Two And Low-Carbon Construction
High Speed Two is the UK’s biggest construction project and these posts on this blog, talk about low-carbon construction.
- HS2 Reveals Dramatic Carbon Saving With Ambitious Modular Design For Thame Valley Viaduct
- HS2 Smashes Carbon Target
- HS2 To Trial New Building Method Which Could Provide Carbon-Free Energy
- New HS2 Pilot Project Swaps Steel For Retired Wind Turbine Blades To Reinforce Concrete
- World First As HS2 Trials Dual-Fuel Piling Rig On London Site
If High Speed Two are thinking this way, how many other projects will be built in a similar way?
Decarbonising Cargo Handling
It should be noted that JCB are involved in Freeport East at Felixstowe/Harwich.
Ports will be the sort of workplaces, where all vehicles should be zero-carbon, to protect the workforce. Some of the container handling machines are large and would be ideal for hydrogen.
Decarbonising Agriculture
JCB also make tractors, like the Fastrac and other equipment for agriculture. As they often work around people, hydrogen could be much better.
New Markets
Zero-carbon engines will result in new products for new markets.
Lord Bamford is on track to create valuable new markets for his diggers and other equipment.
Hydrogen-Powered Land Speed Record
JCB already hold the land speed record with the JCB Dieselmax, at over 350 mph.
This paragraph from Wikipedia describes the powerplant.
The car is powered by two specially-tuned versions of the production JCB444 powerplant, developing up to 750 brake horsepower (560 kW) each (over five times the power output of the production version with 90 psi (6 bar) of boost) and featuring four cylinders and 5 litres of displacement, accompanied by two stage turbochargers, intercooler and aftercooler.
I believe that getting that amount of power out of a production diesel engine, shows that JCB’s combustion engineers could do the same for a hydrogen-powered vehicle.
Are The Elizabeth Line Trains Ready To Be Lengthened?
When Transport for London updated the North and East London Lines of the London Overground in the early years of this century, they felt that four-car Class 378 trains would have enough capacity for the lines. But the lines proved more popular than, they had expected and the trains were very overcrowded. So it was decided to lengthen the trains to the five cars they are today.
This wasn’t as easy as it seems, as platforms at several stations had to be lengthened, which was disruptive and expensive.
One day last week, I was in Farringdon station and took these pictures of the platform edge doors at the back end of a Class 345 train.
Note how, that when a train is in the station, it doesn’t reach to the end.
But this is not always the case, as this picture from Paddington station shows.
Does this mean that some underground Elizabeth Line platforms are longer than others?
In Bombardier’s Plug-and-Play Train, I discuss the plug-and-play design of Aventras.
- This plug-and-play design allows trains to be lengthened or shortened by adding or removing carriages.
- Class 345 trains are actually two half-trains, with a trailer car in between them.
So is this why Class 345 trains have run services as both seven-car and nine-car trains?
The former have three-car half-trains and the latter have four-car half-trains, with an extra MS car.
Talk Of Eleven-Car Trains
If you search the Internet, you’ll find forums and web pages speculating about. whether the trains will be lengthened to ten-cars or even eleven-cars.
Consider.
- The current trains are 204.73 metres long.
- Extra intermediate cars are all 22.5 metres long.
- The trains also are probably fitted with selective door opening or can be as most modern trains have it.
This would mean, that a ten-car train would be 227.23 metres long and an eleven-car train will be 249.73 metres.
The eleven-car figure is just 27 centimetres short of 250 metres.
I wouldn’t me surprised if the maximum train length was given to Bombardier as 250 metres.
I certainly feel, that if it should be decided to lengthen the trains by adding another carriage or two, that this will not be a problem.
The Elizabeth Line’s Two Problems
These posts talk about the two problems.
In TfL Needs More Elizabeth Line Trains Because Of HS2 Delays At Euston, I talked about what happens, if High Speed Two doesn’t link initially to Euston.
In Elizabeth Line: Commuters Say Service ‘Not What Was Promised’, I talked about problems of overcrowding at the Western end of the line.
The solutions to both problems are either more trains or adding more carriages to existing trains.
In this article on Ian Visits, which has the same title as the first post, Ian says this about ordering more trains.
Although HS2 isn’t expected to open until some point between 2029-33, TfL is warning that it will need to place the orders for the new trains soon, as the cost of doing so later will be significantly more expensive. That’s because the factory lines to build Elizabeth line trains at Alstom’s factory in Derbyshire are still in place, but will be demobilised soon. If the trains aren’t ordered before that happens, then the cost of reactivating the factory lines has to be included in the bill.
I suspect, it probably applies to an order for extra carriages as well.
Problems For Alstom
But will a substantial order for more Class 345 trains or carriages cause problems for Alstom at Derby?
This extract from the Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two rolling stock, describes how the Hitachi-Alstom joint venture will build the Classic-Compatible trains for High Speed Two.
Vehicle body assembly and initial fitting out of the trains will take place at the Hitachi Newton Aycliffe factory, the bogies will be manufactured at the Alstom factory in Crewe, and final assembly and fit-out, including the interiors, electronics and bogies, will take place at Alstom’s factory in Derby.
If more Class 345 trains are to be built at Derby, does it mean a rethink by the joint venture?
In Battery EMUs Envisaged In Southeastern Fleet Procurement, I talked about how Southeastern were looking for new trains. Given that Aventras from Alstom could be in the frame for these new trrains for Southeastern, does that give Alstom more complications?
The Anonymous Widower 