Could High Speed Two Serve Blackpool North?
Consider.
- Blackpool North station is electrified and will have an electrified route to London Euston HS2 and Birmingham Curzon Street stations, when High Speed Two opens.
- Yesterday, both 11-car and 9-car Class 390 trains, which are longer than single High Speed Two classic-compatible trains, used Blackpool North station.
- Blackpool is noted for fresh air and fun.
- Blackpool needs leveling-up. Surely High Speed Two will help with this?
- Blackpool has a unique Modern and Ancient tramway to bring residents and visitors to High Speed Two.
I am fairly sure, that single High Speed Two class-compatible trains could use Blackpool North station.
But could another High Speed Two service have a path between London and Preston to serve Blackpool?
Because of the cancellation of Phase 2 of High Speed 2, there are spare paths on High Speed Two between London and the West Midlands.
If the core section of High Speed Two is extended Northwards to Crewe, as advocated by Dyan Perry of the High Speed Rail Group, that I wrote about in The Future Of HS2 Could Lie In Its Original Vision, this would create extra paths to Crewe.
It looks to me, that the tricky part of the route is between Crewe and Preston.
This diagram shows High Speed Two services, as they were originally envisaged before Phase 2 was discontinued.
Note.
- Trains to the left of the vertical black line are Phase 1 and those to the right are Phase 2.
- Full-Size trains are shown in blue.
- Classic-Compatible trains are shown in yellow.
- Blue circles are shown, where trains stop.
- The dotted circles are where trains split and join.
- In the red boxes routes alternate every hour.
Click on the diagram to enlarge it.
Note that if Phase 1 were to be completed to Crewe, there would be five full-size and five classic-compatible trains using the West Midlands and Crewe section of the High Speed Two route, of which five trains would terminate at Manchester Piccadilly HS2 station and two classic-compatible trains would terminate at Liverpool Lime Street.
So just three Scottish trains and one to Lancaster would go North of Warrington Bank Quay station, which would be an average of one train every fifteen minutes.
High Speed Two will be fully digitally signalled and I’m sure that trains could run as flights of two or more trains, a couple of minutes apart.
This would mean that a London and Blackpool North service could run say two minutes behind one of the London and Scotland services to Preston
- Between London and the West Midlands, there would be twelve trains per hour (tph).
- Between the West Midlands and Crewe, there would be also be twelve tph.
- Between Crewe and Preston, there would be five tph.
I believe it would be possible for High Speed Two to run a London and Blackpool North service, provided that the London Euston to Crewe core of High Speed Two is completed soon after Phase 1 is completed.
It should also be noted, that I believe the second Scottish service from London could also have a flight with another service. So could Barrow or Blackburn have a High Speed Two service from London?
Is Wigan North Western Station Ready For High Speed Two?
This diagram shows High Speed Two services, as they were originally envisaged before Phase 2 was discontinued.
Note.
- Trains to the left of the vertical black line are Phase 1 and those to the right are Phase 2.
- Full-Size trains are shown in blue.
- Classic-Compatible trains are shown in yellow.
- Blue circles are shown, where trains stop.
- The dotted circles are where trains split and join.
- In the red boxes routes alternate every hour.
- Was Lancaster chosen as it’s close to the new Eden Project Morecambe?
Click on the diagram to enlarge it.
It would appear if High Speed Two sticks to this original pattern of services, then the following trains will go through Wigan North Western station.
- 200 metre single train – London Euston and Lancaster, which stops at Old Oak Common, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western and Preston.
- 400 metre pair of trains – London Euston and Edinburgh Haymarket/Edinburgh Waverley/Glasgow Central, which stops at Old Oak Common, Preston, Carlisle.
- 400 metre pair of trains – London Euston and Edinburgh Haymarket/Edinburgh Waverley/Glasgow Central, which stops at Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange, Preston, Carlisle.
- 200 metre single train – Birmingham Curzon Street and Edinburgh Haymarket/Edinburgh Waverley or Motherwell/Glasgow Central, which stops at Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle and Lockerby and every two hours at Oxenholme and Penrith.
Note.
- Only single High Speed Two classic-compatible trains, stop in Wigan North Western station and they are only two hundred metres long.
- One train per hour (tph) terminates at Lancaster and a second tph terminates alternatively at Edinburgh Haymarket/Edinburgh Waverley or Glasgow Central.
- Four hundred metre long pairs of trains go through North Western station without stopping.
Currently Wigan North Western has 14 trains per day (tpd) stopping at the station, eleven of which go to Scotland and three to Blackpool.
This Google Map shows Wigan North Western station.
Note.
- The two long platforms in the middle of the station, where the Avanti trains stop.
- A long platform on the Southern side of the station used by local services to and from Liverpool and Blackpool.
- Three bay platforms on the Northern side of the station, one of which is unused, that handle local services to Manchester and beyond.
As the 265.3 metre long Class 390 trains can use the central platforms, High Speed Two classic-compatible trains will be able to use these platforms.
On my brief visit to the station yesterday, I took these pictures.
Note.
- All Class 390 trains are longer than High Speed Two classic-compatible trains, so the train in the pictures indicates that the High Speed Two trains will be able to stop at Wigan North Western station.
- The platforms are long and wide.
- The station is well-equipped with lifts, cafes, waiting rooms and some of the best toilets in a station in the North of England.
- Wigan Wallgate station is only a short walk away, with a selection of local services to Blackburn, Headbolt Lane, Manchester, Southport and a large proportion of Lancashire.
- The last two pictures were taken looking at the two stations from halfway.
- The shops between the two stations are a good selection and include a Morrisons Local.
I had been intending to go on to Preston, Lancaster and Morecambe, but a points failure at Preston meant that no trains were running.
Conclusion
The two Wigan stations and the buses that serve them, could be a good interchange for passengers to catch High Speed Two.
I feel that most of the work needed to be done at Wigan North Western to get the station ready for High Speed Two will mainly be cosmetic or technical upgrades like signalling. I can’t see any expensive or disruptive upgrades like platform lengthening being needed.
Times Of Avanti West Coast Trains Between London Euston And Crewe
This table shows the first few Avanti West Coast trains between London Euston and Crewe on the 17th March 2025.
- 390119 – IS37 – Glasgow – 11 cars – 05:31 – 07:29 – 2 stops – 118 mins – 80.3 mph.
- 390155 – IH61 – Manchester Piccadilly – 11 cars – 06:29 – 08:08 – 2 stops – 99 mins – 95.7 mph.
- 807007 – IF11 – Liverpool Lime Street – 7 cars – 06:36 – 08:23 – 2 stops – 107 mins – 88.6 mph.
- 390104 – IS42 – Glasgow – 11 cars – 07:29 – 08:59 – 0 stops – 90 mins – 105.3 mph
- 390010 – IH62 – Manchester Piccadilly – 9 cars – 07:33 – 09:10 – 1 stop – 97 mins – 97.7 mph.
- 390044 – IF12 – Liverpool Lime Street – 9 cars – 07:43 – 09:18 – 2 stops – 95 mins – 99.7 mph.
- 390118 – IS45 – Glasgow – 11 cars – 08:30 – 10:01 – 0 stops – 91 mins – 104.2 mph
- 390040 – IH63 – Manchester Piccadilly – 11 cars – 08:33 – 10:19 – 1 stop – 106 mins – 89.4 mph.
- 807001 – IF14 – Liverpool Lime Street – 7 cars – 08:43 – 10:28 – 1 stop – 95 mins – 99.7 mph.
- 805001/805011 – ID83 – Holyhead – 10 cars – 09:02 – 10:51 – 1 stop – 109 mins – 86.9 mph.
- 390136 – IS48 – Glasgow – 11 cars – 09:30 – 11:02 – 0 stops – 92 mins – 103.0 mph
- 390040 – IH64 – Manchester Piccadilly – 9 cars – 09:33 – 11:08 – 1 stop – 95 mins – 99.7 mph.
- 390154 – IF16 – Liverpool Lime Street – 11 cars – 09:43 – 11:31 – 1 stop – 108 mins – 87.7 mph.
- 805012/805003 – ID84 – Chester – 10 cars – 10:10 – 11:53 – 1 stop – 103 mins – 92.0 mph.
- 390130 – IS52 – Glasgow – 11 cars – 10:30 – 12:00 – 0 stops – 90 mins – 105.3 mph
- 390151 – IH65 – Manchester Piccadilly – 11 cars – 10:35 – 12:09 – 1 stop – 94 mins – 100.8 mph.
- 807008 – IF18 – Liverpool Lime Street – 7 cars – 10:43 – 12:30 – 1 stop – 107 mins – 88.6 mph.
- 805009 – ID85 – Chester – 5 cars – 11:00 – 11:46 – 1 stop – 106 mins – 89.4 mph.
Note.
- All trains shown, go through Crewe.
- Some trains were delayed, hence their slow average speed.
- The Glasgow trains, which run non-stop from Euston to Warrington Bank Quay were the fastest, with four trains over 100 mph.
I have a few other thoughts.
The Class 805 Trains Are Crying Out For Batteries
In The Data Sheet For Hitachi Battery Electric Trains, I said this on how the Hitachi Class 80x trains will perform on batteries.
These are my conclusions about Hitachi’s battery packs for Class 80x trains.
- The battery pack has a capacity of 750 kWh.
- A five-car train needs three battery-packs to travel 100 miles.
- A nine-car train needs five battery-packs to travel 100 miles.
- The maximum range of a five-car train with three batteries is 117 miles.
- The maximum range of a nine-car train with five batteries is 121 miles.
Holyhead and Crewe is only 105.5 miles.
As battery technology gets better, these distances will increase.
The Fast Glasgow Train Appears To Be Leading A Convoy
The non-stop to Warrington Bank Quay Glasgow trains, also appear to be leading one Manchester Piccadilly, a Liverpool Lime Street and a Chester/North Wales train in a convoy, through Milton Keynes Central and the Trent Valley.
This convoy could grow as other services are added to the West Coast Main Line.
The Open Access Services Might Have Their Own Convoy
It would seem to me, that it might be possible to run a second convoy every hour, out of phase with the current one following the Glasgow service.
It also might be more virtual than real and under the control of the digital signalling, that will be installed on the line.
First High-Speed Rail Service From Rochdale To London In 25 years Secures Political Support
The title if this post, is the same as this article on Rochdale Online.
These are the first three paragraphs.
MPs, local council leaders, businesses and academics gathered in Manchester to show their support for a new high-speed rail service linking Rochdale with London for the first time in 25 years, in a boost to local jobs, growth and connectivity in the North West.
Lumo, which already delivers more reliable, cheaper train travel along the East Coast Main Line, plans to run six return trains a day between Rochdale, Manchester Victoria, Eccles, Newton-le-Willows and Warrington Bank Quay to London Euston from 2027, providing 1.6 million more people in Greater Manchester with a direct link to the capital.
The three-hour service will knock 2hrs 15mins off current journey times by car, secure important emissions savings and create at least 124 direct jobs along the route.
How many other larger towns and cities could use a service like this proposed one to Rochdale?
But Rochdale’s service is more than just a one-dimensional route to and from London.
- Rochdale and Warrington Bank Quay forms a convenient long-range cross-Manchester service.
- Connections at Newton-le-Willows and Warrington Bank Quay provide links to Liverpool and North West England, Wales and Scotland.
- Connections at Manchester Victoria and Eccles provide links to most of Great Manchester.
- Liverpool’s and Manchester’s plans mean that connectivity will only get better.
It will be interesting to see how Lumo’s Rochdale service evolves and develops in the next few years.
Other cities will certainly want one.
3rd October 2024 – A Day In Liverpool
A Three-Leg Journey North
This is the second time, I’ve bought one of there journeys North and they are a pain, unless you want to guarantee seats.
I suppose, I should buy my tickets earlier, but if I can buy my rickets on the day on other train companies, I would prefer to do it on Avanti West Coast.
Avanti West Coast’s problem is that they haven’t got their new Class 807 trains into service yet, which will double the services to Liverpool.
T arrived at Warrington Bank Quay on time and the transfer to Newton-le-Willows went smoothly, but then, I waited thirty minutes for my train to Liverpool Lime Street.
This OpenRailwayMap shows the route I took.
Note.
- Liverpool Lime Street station is at the Western side of the map.
- Newton-le-Willows station is marked by the blue arrow in the top right corner of the map.
- Warrington Bank Quay station is in the bottom right corner of the map.
It does seem a round about route, But I got there. Although, I was late.
Hopefully, in a couple of years, you’ll be able to take a local train between Liverpool Lime Street and Newton-le-Willows stations to link up with FirstGroup’s low-cost Lumo Open Access service between Euston and Rochdale.
A Single Journey Home
I was booked home on the 18:43 train from Lime Street, but as you can often do, I asked and was allowed to board the 17:43.
A Crowded And Crazy Euston
I arrived back at Euston at 20:00, but it was crowded, as the station is very much a building site for High Speed Two.
I felt I would treat myself to a taxi, but I couldn’t find any.
So I took a 205 bus along Euston Road to King’s Cross, where I jumped on the the Circle Line for Moorgate.
From there I took my usual 141 bus home.
A friendly station guy at Moorgate, indicated, there might not be any taxis at Euston.
I’d also found earlier, that there were no escalators to the Underground.
Perhaps more than ever, care should be taken at Euston, when getting to and from the station.
It Looks To Me That High Speed Two Has Got Their Planning Wrong At Euston
The big problem at Euston is getting to and from the National Rail station from East or West,
Compare Euston in this respect with Liverpool Street, King’s Cross, St. Pancras or Paddington.
In The New Step-Free Entrance At Euston Square Station, I show the plans for step-free access to the sub-surface lines.
This new entrance to Euston station, should be built first.
All the dithering about High Speed Two seems to have delayed it!
FirstGroup’s Lumo Seeks To Launch Rochdale – London Open Access Service
The title of this post, is the same as that of this article on Railway Gazette.
These two paragraphs outline the service.
FirstGroup has applied to operate Rochdale – London open access passenger trains, more than 20 years after a short-lived through service ran between the two destinations.
On May 17 FirstGroup said that it had applied to the Office of Rail & Road to launch six Lumo-branded return journeys per day linking London Euston and Rochdale via the West Coast Main Line. The trains would call at Warrington Bank Quay, Newton-le-Willows, Eccles and Manchester Victoria.
These are my thoughts.
The Route Isn’t Fully-Electrified
The route is electrified between London Euston and Manchester Victoria stations, but the 10.4 miles between Manchester Victoria and Rochdale is not electrified.
In Extra Luggage Racks For Lumo, I also talk about the possibility of fitting traction batteries to Lumo’s Class 803 trains, so they could handle the 88.5 mile diversion on the East Coast Main Line via Lincoln.
Trains with a traction battery, with an 88.5 mile range, would be able to travel between Manchester Victoria and Rochdale and return.
How Long Would London Euston And Rochdale Take?
Consider.
- The fastest London Euston and Warrington Bank Quay services take 1 hour and 44 minutes
- The fastest Warrington Bank Quay and London Euston services take 1 hour and 47 minutes
- Northern’s Class 195 trains take between 44-51 minutes Rochdale and Warrington Bank Quay with three stops.
- Northern’s Class 195 trains take between 29-32 minutes Manchester Victoria and Warrington Bank Quay with two stops.
- I will add two minutes for the extra stop.
These are my estimates for overall journey times.
- London Euston and Manchester Victoria – 2 hours and 15 minutes
- London Euston and Rochdale – 2 hours and 29 minutes
- Manchester Victoria and London Euston – 2 hours and 21 minutes
- Rochdale and London Euston – 2 hours and 40 minutes
The fastest direct Avanti West Coast services between London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly take 2 hours and 6 minutes.
Could The Service Be Extended To Leeds?
For my timings between Rochdale and Warrington Bank Quay, I used Northern’s Leeds and Chester service.
This service goes between Manchester Victoria and Leeds calling at Rochdale, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Halifax, Bradford Interchange, New Pudsey and Bramley.
I estimate it would take about 3 hours 32 minutes.
When Bradford has a new through station, I wouldn’t be surprised if a train operator looked at this route between London Euston and Leeds.
As Leeds and Manchester Victoria is only 49.8 miles, Lumo’s battery electric trains, with 88.5 mile batteries sized for the Lincoln diversion on the East Coast Main Line, would have no difficulty serving Leeds, where they would charge before return.
Could Lumo Run Pairs Of Five-Car Trains Between London Euston and Manchester Victoria?
As I said in Ten-Car Hull Trains, Lumo’s sister company; Hull Trains, runs the occasional ten-car service.
Perhaps for a big football match or other event, Lumo might like to run ten-car trains between Manchester Victoria and London Euston.
I suspect they could do it if the platforms were long enough, but they wouldn’t be able to run a 260 metre ten-car train to Rochdale, as that station only has a 135 metre long platform.
Warrington Bank Quay Station Will Get Six Extra Non-Stop Trains To And From London
This would provide real competition to Avanti West Coast over this route.
Newton-le-Willows Station Is Only A Few Miles From The Town Of St. Helen’s
Newton-le-Willows station has 400 parking spaces and 32 disabled parking spaces.
Note.
- The parking is all free!
- There are regular local trains to Chester, Leeds, Liverpool Lime Street, Manchester Airport and Wigan North Western.
A six trains-per-day service to and from London, will help fill up the parking spaces.
Eccles Station Is Within Walking Distance Of Eccles Interchange
This OpenRailwayMap shows Eccles station and Eccles Interchange.
Note.
- The mauve tracks are the Manchester Metrolink.
- They terminate in the South-West at Eccles Interchange.
- The red tracks are the Liverpool-Manchester lines.
- Eccles station is a Northerly walk from Eccles Interchange.
This connection must be useful to more than a few.
I suspect if you’re going between London and Media City UK, Salford Quays or Piccadilly Gardens, you may be better to change to the Metrolink at Eccles.
Will Lumo’s Rochdale Service Run As A Flight With Avanti’s Glasgow Service?
Flighting is where two or more trains going on the same route run a few minutes apart.
- Every hour, on the half hour, an Avanti West Coast service for leaves London Euston for Glasgow Central.
- As with Lumo’s Rochdale service, the first stop is Warrington Bank Quay station.
- The Lumo service would leave London Euston a few minutes after Avanti’s Glasgow service.
- The distance between the two trains would be such, that if the first train stopped, the second train could stop safely.
- Digital signalling as is being installed on UK rail lines would make it easier to ensure safe separation.
But the benefit would be that both trains ran fast to Warrington Bank Quay station.
A Day-Trip To Manchester
If I’m right about the 2 hours and 15-21 minutes between London Euston and Manchester Victoria, then a day-trip would certainly be feasible.
Last Trains
This is a table of the last train times for Lumo between Newcastle and London.
- Weekdays – 20:27 21:35
- Saturdays – 18:27 19:22
- Sundays – 19:24 20:21
Note.
- The first time is the last Northbound departure.
- The second time is the last Southbound departure.
- Are these late enough for football matches?
I shall be interested to see the proposed last train times for the Manchester route.
- Will they be timed so you can get a tram from the Etihad or Old Trafford stadium after an evening match, that allowed you to get the last train back to London from Manchester Victoria?
- Taylor Swift gave the Manchester Arena a lot of favours with her concerts. Would you have been able to see her concert and get the last train back to London?
A few extra full trains wouldn’t hurt Lumo’s finances.
Conclusion
It looks like, this could be a very worthwhile service.
Could Manchester Airport Be Accessed From The West By A Tunnel Under The M56?
This OpenRailwayMap shows the railways of East London between Dalston Junction and Stratford International stations.
Note.
- Dalston Kingsland station is marked with an arrow in the West of the map.
- Stratford International station is marked by the blue lettering in the East of the map.
- The orange line between them is the North London Line.
- There are also two pink lines, which indicate High Speed One, which is dug several metres below the North London Line.
It can’t be much different to dig a high speed railway underneath a motorway. Has anybody done this?
This OpenRailwayMap shows the railways leading to Manchester Airport.
Note.
- Junctions 5 and 6 of the M56 motorway are on the Western edge of the Airport.
- The red tracks are the Styal Line.
- The mauve tracks are the Metrolink.
- It should be noted that railway lines pass under Heathrow Airport’s runways.
Point 4 makes me sure, that Manchester Airport can have a station connected to the West by a railway under the M56.
This OpenRailwayMap shows the railways around Weaver Junction on the West Coast Main Line, where the trains branch off to Liverpool.
Note.
- The West Coast Main Line goes down the Eastern side of the map.
- Warrington Bank Quay is the next station to the North.
- The Liverpool Branch goes off to the West.
- The M56 tuns diagonally across the map from the North-East corner crossing both both branches of the West Coast Main Line.
This Google Map shows where the M56 crosses over the West Coast Main Line to Warrington Bank Quay.
Note.
- The M56 motorway is obvious.
- The Eastbound motorway goes to Manchester Airport and Manchester.
- The junction is numbered 11.
- The railway runs down the Western side of the map.
I believe that it would be possible to connect a railway running East under the motorway to the West Coast Main Line.
This Google Map shows where the M56 crosses over the Liverpool branch of the West Coast Main Line.
Note.
- There is no motorway junction here.
- The North-East bound motorway goes to Manchester Airport and Manchester.
- The railway runs slightly diagonally across the bottom of the map.
- The Westbound railway goes to Runcorn and Liverpool.
- The Eastbound railway goes to Weaver Junction, Crewe and the South.
There would only need to be a connection between Liverpool and the railway under the motorway going to and from Manchester Airport.
I have some further thoughts and questions.
This Is Just My First Thought
I am happier about the connection to the Liverpool branch than the Northern connection.
But then I feel there are several routes at both junctions, some of which will take a wider route.
How Long Will The Tunnels Be?
Between Junctions 11 and 6 on the M56 is 16 miles.
At What Speed Would The Trains Run?
I suspect that once on the straight section between Junctions 11 and 6, speeds of up to 90 or 100 mph should be possible, but speeds would probably be lower at the junctions to the West Coast Main Line.
How Would It Connect To Manchester Piccadilly?
The tunnel would continue the other side of the Airport and it’s a further 9.4 miles to under Manchester Piccadilly.
In The Rival Plans For Piccadilly Station, That Architects Say Will ‘Save Millions’, I wrote about Weston Williamson’s plan for Manchester Piccadilly station.
This was their visualisation.
Note.
- In the visualisation, you are observing the station from the East.
- The existing railway lines into Piccadilly station are shown in red.
- Stockport and Manchester Airport are to the left, which is to the South.
- Note the dreaded Castlefield Corridor in red going off into the distance to Oxford Road and Deansgate stations.
- The new high speed lines are shown in blue.
- To the left they go to Manchester Airport and then on to London, Birmingham and the South, Warrington and Liverpool and Wigan, Preston, Blackpool, Barrow-in-Furness, the North and Scotland.
- To the right, they go to Huddersfield, Bradford, Leeds, Hull and the North East, and Sheffield, Doncaster and the East.
- Between it looks like a low-level High Speed station with at least four tracks and six platforms.
- The high speed lines could be oriented so they ran East-West, rather than North-South in this visualisation.
- The Manchester Metrolink is shown in yellow.
The potential for over-site development is immense. If the Station Square Tower was residential, the penthouses would be some of the most desirable places to live in the North.
Onward From Manchester Piccadilly
I would hope that a connection could be made to the Huddersfield Line to the East of Manchester Piccadilly station, so that trains could use the TransPennine Upgrade all the way to Leeds.
High Speed Two To Lancaster
There has been a lot of speculation about the Northern end of High Speed Two, so I might as well add sort out a few facts and add a bit of speculation of my own.
The Current Lancaster Service
I shall look at the 07:30 train on the 29th September 2023.
- It was a nine-car Class 390 train or Pendolino, which left on time.
- Euston and Lancaster are 230 miles apart.
- The train passed Crewe at 09:59
- The train arrived at Warrington Bank Quay at 09:14 and left at 09:15.
- The train arrived at Wigan North Western at 09:25 and left at 09:26.
- The train arrived at Preston at 09:39 and left at 09:41.
- The train arrived at Lancaster at 09:55 and left at 09:57.
- The journey took two hours and 25 minutes
- The average speed was 95.2 mph.
- There is at least one train per hour (tph).
Lancaster Will Get Its Own High Speed Two Service
This graphic shows High Speed Two services after Phase 2b is completed.
Note.
- Lancaster and Liverpool share a pair of High Speed Two Classic Compatible trains, that will split and join at Crewe.
- The Lancaster service will stop at Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western and Preston, to the North of Crewe.
The Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two gives these times for trains from London after Phase 2a opens to Crewe.
- Crewe – 56 minutes
- Warrington Bank Quay – One hour and 20 minutes
- Wigan North Western – One hour and 34 minutes
- Preston – One hour and 18 minutes
- Lancaster – Two hours and 3 minutes
- Oxenholme – One hour and 56 minutes
- Carlisle – Two hours and 23 minutes
Note.
- The Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western and Lancaster times will apply to the direct Lancaster service.
- The Preston and Carlisle times apply to the non-stop Scottish service.
- Oxenholme will be reached with a change from London.
- Currently, Pendolinos travel between Crewe and Lancaster in an hour or a few minutes less.
I feel the Lancaster time is suspect and a better time would be around one hour and 52-56 minutes.
140 Mph Running Between Crewe And Preston
Consider.
- London Euston and Crewe is 56 minutes
- One hour and 18 minutes to Preston infers a time of 22 minutes between Crewe and Preston.
- Crewe and Preston is 51 miles.
This implies an average speed of 139 mph.
As the West Coast Main Line was built for 140 mph, when digital signalling was installed, this would appear to be feasible, once the signalling is upgraded.
It may also mean, that faster times are possible in services to Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western.
Crewe And Warrington Bank Quay
Consider.
- The distance is 24.1 miles
- HS2 will take 24 minutes with one acceleration and one deceleration, which probably take a maximum of 4 minutes in total.
- I explain the four minutes in High Speed Two To Crewe.
This gives an average speed of 72.3 mph.
Warrington Bank Quay And Wigan North Western
Consider.
- The distance is 11.7 miles
- HS2 will take 14 minutes with one acceleration and one deceleration, which probably take a maximum of 4 minutes in total.
This gives an average speed of 70.2 mph.
Wigan North Western And Lancaster
Consider.
- The distance is 36.1 miles
- HS2 will take 29 minutes with two accelerations and two decelerations, which probably take a maximum of 8 minutes in total.
- I will also allow a minute for the dwell time at Preston.
This gives an average speed of 108.3 mph.
Crewe And Lancaster
Consider.
- The distance is 72 miles
- HS2 will take 67 minutes with four accelerations and four decelerations, which probably take a maximum of 16 minutes in total.
- I will also allow a minute for the dwell times at Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan and Preston.
This gives an average speed of 90.6 mph.
I now feel happier about two hours and three minutes between London and Lancaster.
Conclusion
The West Coast Main Line needs upgrading to full in-cab digital signalling as soon as possible.
Once working it would give journey time savings for everybody travelling on the line.
See Also
Could High Speed Two Finish At Lichfield?
High Speed Two To Wigan
There has been a lot of speculation about the Northern end of High Speed Two, so I might as well add sort out a few facts and add a bit of speculation of my own.
The Current Wigan North Western Service
I shall look at the 08:30 train to Glasgow on the 20th September 2023.
- It was an eleven-car Class 390 train or Pendolino, which left on time.
- Euston and Wigan North Western are 193.8 miles apart.
- Trains call at only Warrington Bank Quay
- The train passed Crewe at 09:59
- The train called at Warrington Bank Quay at 10:14 and left at 10:15.
- The train arrived at Wigan North Western at 10:25 on time.
- The journey took one hour and 55 minutes
- The average speed was 101.1 mph.
- The Crewe and Wigan North Western section is 35.8 miles and the train is scheduled to take 26 minutes.
- The average speed between Crewe and Wigan North Western is 82.6 mph.
The train slows past Crewe because of the stop at Warrington Bank Quay.
London Euston And Wigan North Western After Phase 2a Of High Speed Two Opens
According to the Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two, these are the timings.
- London Euston and Crewe – 56 minutes
- London Euston and Warrington Bank Quay – One hour and 20 minutes
- London Euston and Wigan North Western – One hour and 34 minutes
From these figures and the times of the 08:30, I can deduce these journey times.
- Currently, Crewe and Warrington Bank Quay takes 16 minutes and High Speed Two will take 24 minutes
- Currently, Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western takes 10 minutes and High Speed Two will take 14 minutes
- Currently, Crewe and Wigan North Western takes 26 minutes and High Speed Two will take 38 minutes
I am surprised that sectional timings on this short section of the West Coast Main Line are slower than current timings. Digital signalling and the faster acceleration and deceleration of the new trains, are more likely to decrease times, than increase them.
London Euston And Preston After Phase 2a Of High Speed Two Opens
According to the Wikipedia entry for High Speed Two, these are the timings.
- London Euston and Crewe – 56 minutes
- London Euston and Warrington Bank Quay – One hour and 20 minutes
- London Euston and Wigan North Western – One hour and 34 minutes
- London Euston and Preston – One hour and 18 minutes
This graphic shows High Speed Two services.
Note that Preston gets two non-stop services to and from London and another with stops at Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western, and a train split/join at Crewe.
The one hour and 18 minutes surely applies to one or both of the non-stop services.
140 Mph Running Between Crewe And Preston
Consider.
- London Euston and Crewe is 56 minutes
- One hour and 18 minutes to Preston infers a time of 22 minutes between Crewe and Preston.
- Crewe and Preston is 51 miles.
This implies an average speed of 139 mph.
As the West Coast Main Line was built for 140 mph, when digital signalling was installed, this would appear to be feasible, once the signalling is upgraded.
It may also mean, that faster times are possible in services to Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western.
Consider.
- Crewe and Wigan North Western is 35.8 miles
- High Speed Two will take 38 minutes
- The average speed between Crewe and Wigan North Western will be just 56.5 mph.
But if it could run at 140 mph mph between Crewe and Wigan North Western, the base time would be just over 15 minutes.
To this time must be added two full station stops and the time it takes to split or join.
With the superior acceleration and deceleration of the High Speed Two trains and their level of automation, these operations will not take 23 minutes.
I believe that this means that minutes can be saved on services to Lancaster, Liverpool Lime Street, Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western.
London Euston And Wigan North Western After Phase 2b Of High Speed Two Opens
There will be no changes as the full-size High Speed Two trains are not planned to run to the North of Crewe.
See Also
Warrington Bank Quay Could Become Major Rail Interchange
The title of this post, is the same as that of this article on the Warrington Guardian.
This is the first three paragraphs.
Warrington Bank Quay could become a major rail interchange as part of plans to create a new train line through the town.
Transport for the North revealed the final draft of its proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail earlier this week, with one of its key recommendations being the construction of a new link running from Liverpool to Manchester via the town centre.
And the Warrington Guardian understands that this will involve an underground line calling at Bank Quay Station.
I talked about this in Northern Powerhouse Rail – A New Line Between Liverpool And Manchester Via The Centre Of Warrington.
But it does appear to be more ambitious than the original indications.
The Anonymous Widower 