Thoughts On The Diesel Engines On Class 800/802 Trains
On my trip down to Devon yesterday, I remarked to the young lad, who I was sitting opposite that I couldn’t feel or hear the diesel engine under the floor of our car.
The Wikipedia entry for the Class 800 train, says this about which cars have a diesel orchestra under the floors.
The Class 800 and Class 802 bi-mode are equipped with three GUs per five-car set and five GUs per nine-car set; a five-car set has a GU situated under vehicles 2/3/4 and a nine-car set has a GU situated under vehicles 2/3/5/7/8. In comparison, the electric-orientated Class 801 features a single GU for a five- to nine-car set, which provides emergency power for limited traction and auxiliaries if the power supply from the overhead line fails. By adding or removing GUs, a Class 800 can be converted into a Class 801 and vice versa.
I believe we were in car 6 of a nine-car set, which would have explained the Silence of the Diesels.
Coming back, I was sitting in a car, which was labelled C, so as car 9 was leading, I must have been in Wikipedia’s car 7. So as it was quiet, was car 7’s diesel not being used?
But both trips indicated how quiet running will be, when batteries replace diesels.
What Is The Battery Range Of An Hitachi Intercity Tri-Mode Battery Train?
In The Data Sheet For Hitachi Battery Electric Trains, I came to these conclusions.
- The battery pack has a capacity of 750 kWh.
- A five-car train needs three battery-packs to travel 100 miles.
- A nine-car train needs five battery-packs to travel 100 miles.
- The maximum range of a five-car train with three batteries is 117 miles.
- The maximum range of a nine-car train with five batteries is 121 miles.
As battery technology gets better, these distances will increase.
Could Class 800/802 Trains Run Between Newbury And Exeter St. Davids?
Consider.
- Trains from London to the South-West switch to diesel power at Newbury, which is 53 miles from London.
- Exeter St. Davids is 173.4 miles from London.
- Newbury and Exeter St. Davids is 120.4 miles.
- Taunton station could be electrified for a Splash and Dash.
But it does appear that Exeter St. Davids can be reached by a battery-electric train from London.
Could Class 800/802 Trains Run Between Exeter St. Davids And Plymouth?
Consider.
- All trains seem to wait for ten minutes at Plymouth.
- Plymouth station could be electrified for a Splash and Dash.
- Plymouth and Exeter St. Davids is only 52 miles.
Could Class 800/802 Trains Run Between Penzance And Plymouth?
Consider.
- All trains seem to wait for ten minutes at Plymouth.
- Plymouth station could be electrified for a Splash and Dash.
- Penzance and Plymouth is only 79.5 miles.
It looks like trains can easily run between Penzance and Plymouth on battery-power.
Charging A Pair Of Trains
I believe platform lengths at Taunton, Exeter St. Davids, Plymouth and Penzance are all long enough to handle a pair of five-car Class 800 or Class 802 trains.
There could be separate circuits at each end of the platform so both trains could be quickly charged.
I doubt the Nimbys would object much to electrification in stations.
Conclusion
I’m fairly sure, that with short lengths of electrification at Taunton, Exeter St. Davids, Plymouth and Penzance, and batteries, that Class 800 and Class 802 trains can hop their way between Penzance and Newbury.
As a ten-minute stop is already included in the timetable at Plymouth, the trains could have a quick top up.
Okehampton Interchange Station Opens
Okehampton Interchange station was officially opened yesterday.
This OpenRailwayMap shows the station.
Note.
- Okehampton is to the West.
- There is a single 100 metre long platform on the North side of the single-track Dartmoor Line.
- I suspect, that by using selective door opening, a five-car Class 800/1/2 train could serve the station.
- There is a bridge with lifts between the platform and the car-park.
- It appears there is a drop-off point on the North side of the station.
I have a few thoughts on the design.
Could A Second Track And Platform Be Added?
It would obviously depend on passenger numbers and how they used the station, but it does look as if the station has left space for a second track and platform.
The lifts, that would be needed to cross the tracks have already been installed.
It looks like the station has been designed with this possibility in mind.
Will Any Local Buses Serve Okehampton Interchange Station?
I asked Google AI, the question in the title of this section and received this reply.
New timetables are due 30th August 2026.
118 Tavistock to Okehampton service will be the only bus to connect to the new station, all the other buses currently serving the old station will continue to do so.
That seems to be sensible.
Could Okehampton Interchange Station Be Used As The Eastern End Of An Alternative Route To Cornwall?
This paragraph has been taken from the Wikipedia entry for Dawlish station.
After a major storm in 2014 washed out the track bed and made an 80-metre (260 ft) breach in the sea wall north of the station, plans were developed to reinforce and replace the sea wall around the station area. This work, which was expected to cost £80 million, started in 2020[10] and was largely completed in late summer 2022. During this time, the sea wall walkway was raised to platform level and both platforms were resurfaced. The platform lighting was also improved. An accessible footbridge, built to replace the previous at-grade crossing for passengers who can’t use stairs, opened on 15 March 2024.
The seas along the coast can be ferocious and it would be unwise to say that another major storm will never wash the railway away again.
An in any case, the line to Cornwall will be occasionally closed for engineering works.
But given, that Okehampton Interchange, Launceston and Bodmin Parkway stations are all handy for the a30 road, which is a fast dual carriageway.
I believe that between Okehampton Interchange and Bodmin Parkway stations would be an ideal route for one of the new 10000 km. range hydrogen-powered coaches, that are being developed by Wrightbus and Mercedes among thers.
North-East-Based Turntide Receives Initial Battery Production Order From Hitachi Rail For Arriva’s Grand Central Intercity UK Battery Trains
The title of this post, is the same as that of this news item from Turntide Technologies.
This is the sub-heading.
New batteries to enable greener train operations to remove over 600 engines on existing trains, offering lower cost of operations, more range, and path to zero-emissions travel.
These are the initial three paragraphs, that add more detail.
Turntide Technologies (Turntide), a global leader in electrification and hybridisation solutions and a long-standing North East manufacturer, received its first order from Hitachi Rail to begin production of its next-generation modular battery system for the first U.K.-manufactured battery trains for Arriva’s Grand Central.
First announced on July 2, 2025, this partnership involved an R&D component and has officially moved into production with the potential to support either new battery trains or retrofitting over 600 engines on existing Hitachi Rail U.K. fleets.
This new battery system will allow for lower cost of operations, extended range, and a path to zero-emission travel, while reducing reliance on fossil fuels and improving air quality and noise pollution. Turntide’s bespoke batteries are designed to deliver even greater power density in the same footprint of a diesel engine. This battery production is an advanced manufacturing milestone for Arriva’s Grand Central new fleet, which is being built in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham by Hitachi Rail.
In Are Hitachi’s Tri-Mode Trains Exceeding Expectations?, I said this.
I asked Google AI, the question in the title of this post and received this answer.
Yes, Hitachi’s tri-mode (battery-hybrid) trains are exceeding expectations, particularly following successful trials in the UK in late 2024. Trials of the battery-equipped Class 802/2 demonstrated superior performance to initial forecasts, leading to a £300 million order for a new fleet to be delivered in 2028.
Key findings from trials and operational expectations:
Performance Exceeded: The trial, conducted with TransPennine Express and Angel Trains, showed fuel cost savings of 35%–50%, surpassing initial predictions of up to 30%.
Operational Capability: The battery technology enabled trains to reach speeds greater than 75 mph and provided enough range for zero-emission, silent running in and out of stations, significantly reducing noise and improving air quality.
Energy Efficiency: The battery matched the weight of a diesel engine, meaning no extra track degradation.
Future Impact: The success of the trial led to an order from Arriva Group for a new fleet for Grand Central services, which will increase seating capacity by 20% and are expected to significantly reduce carbon emissions.
These trains, designed to run on electric, battery, or diesel power, are part of a push to modernize rail services, with the technology allowing for the gradual elimination of diesel-only operation on certain routes.
In The Data Sheet For Hitachi Battery Electric Trains, I came to these conclusions.
- The battery pack has a capacity of 750 kWh.
- A five-car train needs three battery-packs to travel 100 miles.
- A nine-car train needs five battery-packs to travel 100 miles.
- The maximum range of a five-car train with three batteries is 117 miles.
- The maximum range of a nine-car train with five batteries is 121 miles.
Hitachi have seen my figures and told me they’re not far out.
As battery technology gets better, these distances will increase
What Battery Range Do Arriva Grand Central Trains Need?
Arriva Grand Central Trains currently run services to Bradford Interchange and Sunderland and hope of adding services to Cleethorpes.
All services would go between Doncaster and Kings Cross, with some stopping additionally at Peterborough.
The lengths of unelectrified track on each route is as follows.
- Bradford Interchange – Shaftholme junction and Bradford Interchange is not electrified – 47.8 miles
- Cleethorpes – Doncaster and Cleethorpes is not electrified – 52.1 miles
- Sunderland – Northallerton and Sunderland is not electrified – 47.4 miles
Note.
- Bradford Interchange station is on a tightly hemmed-in site and putting charging infrastructure in the station might be difficult.
- All Bradford Interchange services will soon be passing electrification at Mirfield station, so there may be scope for a quick charge and continue.
- Cleethorpes station is an open-air station with four platforms.
- I believe it is likely, that Cleethorpes station will also be a destination station for other battery-electric trains from LNER, Northern Trains and TransPennine, so I would suspect that charging facilities will be installed.
- Cleethorpes station could be an ideal location for one of Siemens’ Rail Charging Converters.
- Sunderland station is underground and has a unique layout where both platforms are electrified for the Metro. It is all explained in the Wikipedia entry for the station.
- The Wikipedia entry shows an open-air siding without electrification. One possibility would be for the Class 820 trains to park there and use their on-board diesel to top-up the batteries, so they could reach Northallerton.
- It appears that Grand Central visit Ryhope Grange Sidings between arriving and leaving for King’s Cross. The trains could have their batteries topped up there if needed.
It does look like a five-car train with a battery range of at least 105 miles would be able to handle these three routes.
The Arriva Grand Central Trains Fleet Are Now Class 820 trains
They have a Wikipedia entry.
The order was for nine trains of five cars.
- Wikipedia describes them as tri-mode trains.
- I believe they will have three battery packs and one diesel generator.
- Three battery packs should give a range of 117 miles.
- Google AI says that on one diesel generator, these trains can limp home at 60 miles per hour.
- Google AI says that the diesel generator will be able to charge the batteries at the destination station?
- From comments on the Internet, it appears that Hitachi have a very clever train control system, that ekes out the available power.
It looks to me that Hitachi have designed a train that can handle an unelectrified branch line of up to 60 miles or 120 miles if there are charging facilities at the destination station.
Did LNER And TransPennine Express Not Want To Be First With Battery-Electric Intercity Trains?
Consider.
- TransPennine and LNER are under government control.
- TransPennine provided the train for the testing, so they must know all the results and their drivers, who were probably involved certainly do.
- LNER must have the best initial route in King’s Cross and Lincoln, where only the last 16.6 miles, between Newark and Lincoln is not electrified.
- Surely, both companies should have been given at least one of the first batteries, so they could start training staff in how to use and service the batteries.
I have also totalled how many existing diesel power-packs are in existing Hitachi trains and it is 759.
This figure surprised me, as the sub-heading in the Turntide news item said the number of engines in existing trains was over 600. But then East Midlands Railway are still introducing their fleet of 33 x Class 810 trains, which have a total of 132 engines, and 627 could be described as over 600 engines.
How Much Would A Turntide Battery-Pack Cost?
Consider.
- This is a bespoke product for Hitachi.
- Hitachi have stated that the weight is the same as a diesel-pack, so that track-access rules and charges won’t change.
- As a Control Engineer, I wouldn’t be surprised, that the battery-pack is designed to tell the train control system, that it is a diesel power pack. So it acts just like one!
- In the 1960s, I was designing, building and installing transisterised control systems to replace electronic valve and relay equipment in a rolling mills. The two generations of control systems were interchangeable. Are diesel-packs and battery-packs the same?
- Why did Hitachi choose a small supplier in Gateshead, rather than one of a number of capable companies in Japan? You don’t go halfway around the world, if the quality is available locally.
- Deployment of these trains, will avoid the cost of scores of miles of overhead electrification.
- A lot of routes won’t even need chargers at the remote destination, as the range will be sufficient for an out and back journey from the current electrification.
- Fuel cost savings of 35%–50% were achieved in development testing.
- I have ridden in three battery-electric trains. All were mouse quiet. Will that increase ridership?
I believe these batteries are no ordinary batteries. So they won’t come cheap!
I wouldn’t be surprised that the cost of each battery-pack between a half-a-million pounds and a million pounds, with support.
Will These Trains Create Growth In The Economy?
I have ridden in all current variants of the Hitachi Intercity Express Trains, with the possible exception of the Class 805 train and as each version has been introduced, they are no worse, but often better than previous versions.
I have had two or maybe three return trips to Nottingham and Sheffield in the latest variant, which is East Midlands Railway’s Class 810 train.
This is without doubt the pick of the bunch.
I therefor believe that if this continuous improvement carries on, that the new Class 820 train, that has been ordered by Grand Central will be even better.
- My experience of battery-electric trains, says it will be quieter.
- The environment of stations will be improved.
- Train fuel costs will be reduced.
- I believe that ridership will be increased, as people will be intrigued by a 125 mph train running on batteries.
- The trains will have the ability to divert via Lincoln using the GNGE Diversion on the East Coast Main Line during engineering works.
- Because of their regenerative braking, the trains should be able to do very quick extra stops at intermediate stations.
- New routes will be developed.
- Less ugly electrification will be erected on scenic routes like Settle and Carlisle, and across the Highlands of Scotland.
I believe strongly, that at the end of the day, that battery-electric trains will increase the profits of operators and Network Rail, and reduce the cost to the taxpayers of the railways.
Grand Central’s New Trains Will Improve Services
All these stations will be served by the new Class 820 trains.
- Barnetby
- Bradford Interchange
- Brighouse
- Cleethorpes
- Doncaster
- Eaglescliffe
- Grimsby
- Habrough
- Halifax
- Hartlepool
- Low Moor
- Mirfield
- Northallerton
- Peterborough
- Pontefract Monkhill
- Scunthorpe
- Seaham
- Sunderland
- Thirsk
- Wakefield Kirkgate
- York
Passengers should notice the following from the new Grand Central trains.
- A quieter ride.
- Less vibration.
- Slightly faster services due to faster stops at stations.
- No diesel smoke and much less noise from trains in stations.
Note.
- Cross Country, Hull Trains, LNER, Lumo, TransPennine Express and other operators will come under pressure to follow suit.
- Batteries, will not have the power for freight trains, so will we see a new generation of hydrogen freight locomotives?
But will the improved services bring that exclusive growth to the economy?
Only time will tell!
Private And Public Operators
In the UK, we have.
- Private open access operators like Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo, who can buy trains on a loan from a leasing company.
- Public operators like LNER and TransPennine Express, who probably have to get sign off from the Treasury.
- Several companies like Great Western Railways and East Midlands Railway, who are soon to be taken over by Great British Railways, who are stuck in a sort of limbo.
My late friend ; David, who rose to the highest level in banking in the UK, would have come up with a solution.
He would probably have said, that there’s is very little difference between the groups of operators.
- The train services they offer vary only on destinations and prices.
- The ticketing system is now unified, so if you turn up at the last minute and want to go to Newcastle and Lumo and LNER both have tickets, you are offered a choice and you can pick the one that’s best for you.
- All services will soon be running similar battery-electric trains, fprobably from the same Hitachi factory in Newton Aycliffe.
- Food and beverage service is not competitive and could be improved.
- Staff are probably on similar employment agreements.
So why shouldn’t Great British Railways be able to lease trains and even battery packs from companies like Angel Trains, who are funding the trains for Grand Central?
It might get more battery trains running on tracks all over Great Britain sooner than it appears they will now!
Creating More Capacity At King’s Cross Station
I took these pictures as I walked through King’s Cross station today.
Note.
- Each of the eight platforms in the main train shed, has been formally divided into a and b sections.
- In the first picture, a sign to the right of the clock, showing 0a and 0b, indicates that Platform 0 has been similarly divided.
- I would assume, that any services run by 10-car trains would use both the a and b platforms.
- Services run by 5-car trains, can use any free ‘a’ or ‘b’ platform.
It would appear to me, that 18 x 5-car platforms must be able to handle more trains than 9 x 10-car platforms.
This information screen, which is one of several, explains what has been done.
This is the message on the screen, which is only visible about once every ten minutes.
- There are now more trains to and from King’s Cross station.
- To help you find your train we’ve added new signs dividing platforms into sections ‘a’ and ‘b’ for some services.
- Please allow extra time to get to section ‘a’, as this is furthest away.
It’s not a good way to present information.
It is one of the worst examples of mushroom management, I’ve seen in a long time.
I suspect, that experienced travellers will understand it, but will the less experienced?
Will It Increase The Capacity?
I believe it is a well-known rule, that you get more bricks in a box, if they are all the same size and they are a fraction of the size of the box.
So by having five- and ten-car trains and platforms, Network Rail are minimising wasted space in the station, which is increasing the capacity.
The new digital signaling gives precise control of the trains and theoretically, would obtain the maximum number of trains in the station.
But all trains, that will use the station must follow these rules.
- Five- or ten-cars long.
- Trains must have a digital-signalling capability.
- Be able to cruise at 125 mph, so they can keep up with other trains.
Terminal stations on the East Coast Main Line, like Aberdeen, Bradford Forster Square, Edinburgh, Harrogate, Hull, Inverness, Leeds and others must also be capable of handling five- or ten-car trains.
Could The Settle And Carlisle Be Used As A More Formal Route?
In June 2021, I wrote Through Settle And Carlisle Service Under Consideration, which starts like this.
The title of this post, is the same as that of an article in the June 2021 Edition of Modern Railways.
This is the first paragraph.
Plans for a new Leeds to Glasgow through service via the Settle and Carlisle line are being developed, with CrossCountry and the Department for Transport starting to look at the possible scheme.
It sounds like a sensible idea to me.
The article also suggests the following.
- CrossCountry is a possible operator.
- CrossCountry are keen to improve services between Leeds and Glasgow
- The trains could be InterCity 125s, freed up, by a the arrival of Class 221 trains from Avanti West Coast, when they receive their new Class 805 trains.
- Maintenance of the trains wouldn’t be a problem, as this could be done at Neville Hill in Leeds or Craigentinny in Edinburgh.
- Services could start in December 2023.
But nothing more has been heard.
However some things have happened.
The Settle And Carlisle Has Become A Popular Charter Route
Google AI gave me this paragraph.
The Settle and Carlisle line is an extremely popular, premier route for heritage rail charters, steam excursions, and luxury rail tours in the UK, often operating at full capacity. Renowned for its scenic 72-mile journey through the Yorkshire Dales and Pennines, it features iconic structures like the Ribblehead Viaduct.
I have also written these posts about charters on the Settle and Carlisle Line.
Scheduled Steam-Hauled Services For the Settle And Carlisle Railway
Rail Operator Crosses Line For First Time In Years
‘Staycation Express’ To Return Along Full Length of S & C
It doesn’t appear that the numbers of charter trains are showing any sign of decrease.
LNER Has Ordered Class 897 Trains
When LNER took over the East Coast Main Line services, they had six main classes of trains.
- Five-car Class 800/1 bi-mode trains
- Nine-car Class 800/2 bi-mode trains
- Five-car Class 801/1 electric trains
- Nine-car Class 801/2 electric trains
- Seven-car InterCity225 trains
- Nine-car InterCity225 trains
Note.
- The five-car trains can run in pairs as ten-car trains.
- The Class 800 and Class 801 trains can run to destinations, that lack full electrification using diesel power where needed.
- Hitachi are developing battery-power for rail routes without electrification.
In 2023 to replace the InterCity225 trains ten ten-car Class 897 tri-mode trains were ordered from CAF, which will soon be in service, over all LNER’s network.
LNER Has Fully Electrified And Unelectrified Destinations
LNER’s current destinations, that are fully electrified to King’s Cross include.
- Bradford Forster Square
- Berwick on Tweed
- Darlington
- Doncaster
- Durham
- Edinburgh Haymarket
- Edinburgh Waverley
- Grantham
- Keithley
- Leeds
- Newark Northgate
- Newcastle
- Peterborough
- Retford
- Shipley
- Skipton
- Stevenage
- Wakefield Westgate
- York
Whilst those are not fully electrified include.
- Aberdeen
- Cleethorpes
- Dundee
- Grimsby Town
- Harrogate
- Huddersfield
- Horsforth
- Hull
- Inverness
- Lincoln
- Middlesbrough
- Sheffield
- Sunderland
- Thornaby
- Worksop
Note.
- Other destinations can be added as required.
- I suspect, that Class 897 trains will be able to approach many stations without electrification on battery power alone.
- Staff and Passengers would probably like underground stations like Sunderland to be worked on batteries alone.
The Class 800 bi-mode, the Class 801 electric and the Class 897 tri-mode trains will give LNER a very flexible fleet.
Onward To Skipton, Carlisle and Glasgow Central And Edinburgh From Bradford Forster Square
I wonder is someone has realised that the Class 897 trains could use their tri-mode capabilities to invade Scotland?
This OpenRailwayMap shows the railways between the Scottish Lowlands and northern England.
Note.
- Red tracks are electrified.
- Black tracks are not.
- The blue arrow in the middle of the map indicates Carlisle.
- The red track going North-South through Carlisle is the West Coast Main Line.
- The black track going South from Carlisle is the Settle and Carlisle Line.
- Where it turns red is at Skipton station and the electrification can power the train to Bradford Foster Square, Doncaster, Leeds or Sheffield stations.
- The West Coast Main Line splits North of Carlisle and electrified trains can reach either Glasgow Central in the West or Edinburgh Haymarket or Waverley in the East.
- The black track going North-South between Carlisle and Glasgow via Dumfries is the Glasgow South Western Line, which can be used as a diversionary route by some trains with a self-powered capability.
The Settle and Carlisle Line certainly makes Anglo-Scottish routes more robust and flexible when there is bad weather, engineering works or overhead wire or signalling failures.
Will Class 897 Trains Be Able To Run On The Settle And Carlisle Line?
I asked Google AI this question and it gave this answer.
Yes LNER’s new Class 897 tri-mode trains (scheduled for introduction from 2027) will be able to run on the Settle and Carlisle line. As tri-mode electro-diesel multiple units, these 10-car trains are designed to operate across the entire LNER network, utilizing electric, diesel, or battery power to manage non-electrified routes like this, providing a modern alternative to older, diesel-only fleets.
Key details regarding Class 897 on the Settle and Carlisle Line:
Tri-mode Capability: These trains can run on electric, diesel, or battery power, making them highly versatile for non-electrified, scenic, or challenging routes.
Operating Strategy: The trains are designed for flexibility and can be used across the LNER network, which includes routes connecting to Scotland via the West Coast Main Line (WCML) or through services from Leeds.Upgrading Service: They will replace the 40-year-old InterCity 225 fleet, offering a more environmentally friendly, modern alternative to current diesel bi-modes, such as the Class 800/802.
The route is a major, yet challenging, rail line featuring 20 viaducts and 14 tunnels, making it suitable for modern, versatile train sets.
I also believe that running Class 897 trains between Yorkshire and Glasgow offers opportunities to run new services, that will appeal to both travellers and rail operators.
Does The UK Need More Passenger Rail Capacity Between Yorkshire And Glasgow?
I asked Google AI this question and it gave this answer.
Yes, the UK requires more passenger rail capacity between Yorkshire and Glasgow due to severe overcrowding and forecasted demand growth. Major routes like the East Coast Main Line (ECML) and West Coast Main Line (WCML) are, or will soon be, at maximum capacity. Key constraints include infrastructure limitations and the need for better Scotland-England connectivity.
Key insights on this need:
Capacity Constraints: The WCML, particularly at its southern end, is already effectively full, with limited capacity for additional, longer trains. Similarly, the ECML is experiencing significant overcrowding.
Growing Demand: Passenger demand for long-distance rail travel continues to rise, with significant increases noted in journeys between Scotland and other regions.
Infrastructure Issues: Constraints include steep inclines, tight curves, and the need to mix passenger and freight traffic, particularly on the West Coast route.
Proposed Solutions: While some improvements are planned, such as Lumo extending services to Glasgow, the Integrated Rail Plan (IRP) focuses on capacity enhancements in the North/Midlands.
Strategic Need: Enhanced, high-speed connections are considered essential for long-term economic integration and to prevent increased air travel/emissions.
The great advantage of the route, is that is already in place.
Can The Settle And Carlisle Line Handle Planned Diversions?
Can The Settle And Carlisle Line Handle The Caledonian Sleeper?
I asked Google AI this question and it gave this answer.
The Settle-Carlisle line is not a standard route for the Caledonian Sleeper, which typically travels via the West Coast Main Line (WCML) to Edinburgh, Glasgow, and beyond. While the line is a scenic, double-track route with significant infrastructure, it is generally used for local services and freight, not long-distance, heavy sleeper trains.
Key Considerations:
Route: The Caledonian Sleeper operates on the West Coast Main Line, serving destinations like Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Inverness, and Fort William.
Capacity & Infrastructure: While the Settle-Carlisle line has major structures like the Ribblehead Viaduct, it is not the primary route for high-speed or overnight sleeper services.
Operational Normal: The sleeper service splits into portions at Edinburgh, and does not regularly operate via the Settle-Carlisle line.
In short, the Settle-Carlisle line is not designed for or used by the Caledonian Sleeper, which operates via the West Coast Main Line.
But it does appear, that in the past some sleeper trains have used it.
How Many Freight Trains Use the Settle And Carlisle Line In A Typical Day?
This article on the BBC is entitled Settle To Carlisle line: Shortage of trains ‘Hampering Growth’, says this about the number of trains.
From only two trains a day in the 1980s the Settle and Carlisle line now sees 14 passenger and 18 freight services a day.
That is progress!
Could Electric Trains Run Between St. Pancras International and Sheffield Stations With No More Electrification?
A reader suggested, that I look at this, so here goes!
- A couple of weeks ago, I took a Class 222 diesel train back from Sheffield to St. Pancras International and it seemed a few minutes quicker.
- Looking at the timetable today, at least one service on the route is now just under two hours and some others are just over.
So the new Class 810 trains may not be fully in service yet, but the trains have already had an effect on the timetable.
How Far North Is The Midland Main Line Being Electrified?
I asked Google AI this question and received this answer.
As of early 2026, the Midland Main Line (MML) is electrified as far north as Wigston, just south of Leicester.
- Northern Limit: The section from Kettering up to Wigston South Junction was energised in July 2024, representing the current northern limit of 25kV overhead line equipment (OLE).
- Pause in Further Electrification: Following a UK government spending review, the further, planned northward extension of electrification to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham, and Sheffield was indefinitely paused in July 2025.
- Current Operations: While electrification has stopped at Wigston, the line is served by new bi-mode (electro-diesel) trains, allowing for electric running from London St Pancras to Wigston before switching to diesel power.
- Previous Work: The line is also fully electrified from London St Pancras to Bedford, including the route to Corby.
Note.
- South Wigston Junction and Sheffield are 69.4 miles apart.
- The Hitachi trains can raise and lower pantographs on the move.
Distances without wires from London St. Pancras International to various destinations are as follows.
- Sheffield – 69.4 miles
- Leicester – 3.7 miles
- Derby – 36.4 miles
- Nottingham – 31.1 miles
As trains will have to go out and back to these destinations distances travelled will be doubled.
- Sheffield – 138.8 miles
- Leicester – 7.4 miles
- Derby – 72.8 miles
- Nottingham – 62.2 miles
It looks to me, that if the new Class 810 trains, can travel 138.8 miles on batteries and diesel engines as a tri-mode train, then the Midland Main Line is electrified.
Could The Sheffield Services Turn Round At Doncaster And Charge Their Batteries There?
Note.
- South Wigston Junction and Doncaster are 79.5 miles apart.
- Doncaster is a fully-electrified station.
- Sheffield and Doncaster would get two extra connecting trains per hour.
- The two services could also call at Meadowhall and/or Rotherham Central.
The Class 810 trains could charge their batteries, whilst passengers to and from Doncaster left and entered the trains.
Could A Simple Cross-Platform Change Be Arranged Between East Coast And Midland Main Line Services?
Doncaster station has two long island platforms, one of which is generally used for Northbound services and one for Southbound services.
Note.
- All electrified tracks are shown in red.
- The two wide island platforms, with Northbound on the West side and Southbound on the East side.
- Each island platform has an electrified platform face on both sides.
- The four platforms faces on the island platforms can hold pairs of five-car Hitachi trains.
- There are two through tracks or avoiding lines between the two island platforms for trains that aren’t stopping.
- There are bay platforms at the ends of the station for local trains.
- The station is fully step-free with a wide pedestrian underpass.
I know the station well and it looks to me, that East Midland Railway’s five-car services for St. Pancras could charge up in the Southern ends of the four faces of the island platforms and the two South-facing bay platforms.
I also believe that a pair of five-car Class 810 trains could be handled and charged, should it become necessary.
It looks to me, that the engineers updating the East Coast Main Line, know that they were caught out badly by High Speed Two, so the redesign for the next fifty or a hundred years will be completely future-proofed.
Doncaster and London could almost be considered to be twin main lines, with two pairs of high speed lines taking different routes, that serve different towns and cities.
How Many Travellers Go Between East Scotland And The North-East of England And The English Midlands?
It must be quite a few, as in the new East Coast Main Line timetable, more Scottish services stop at places like Doncaster and Newark.
But surely, if you could go between say Perth or Aberdeen and Derby or Nottingham in two battery-electric trains, with a relaxed change at Doncaster, you’d take it?
I certainly would!
East Coast And Midland Main Lines Compared
These are times between London and Doncaster.
- Current times between Doncaster and London are typically between 1 hour and 31-40 minutes going via the East Coast Main Line.
- I estimate times between Doncaster and London will be typically 2 hours and 22-27 minutes going via the Midland Main Line.
Note.
- Doncaster and London King’s Cross is 156 miles
- Doncaster and London St. Pancras International is 183.3 miles
- So the Midland Main Line route would appear to to be about 45 minutes slower.
- I suspect, that for passengers between between London and North of York, it will always be quicker to use an East Coast Main Line service.
These are times between London and Sheffield.
- Current times between Sheffield and London are typically between 2 hours and 4-9 minutes going via the Midland Main Line.
- I estimate times between Sheffield and London will be typically between 2 hours and 2 minutes going via the East Coast Main Line.
Note.
- Sheffield and London King’s Cross is via Retford.
- Sheffield and London King’s Cross is 162.1 miles
- Sheffield and London St. Pancras International is 183.3 miles
- Sheffield and Retford is 23.5 miles
- So the Midland Main Line route would appear to to be a few minutes slower.
I would feel that there is scope that under Great British Railways to optimise services between London and Doncaster and Sheffield.
The Master Cutler
The Master Cutler is a named train, that is described in this Wikipedia entry, that was introduced in 1947.
- Over its life it has run into both King’s Cross and St. Pancras.
- I can remember the train in the 1950s, running into King’s Cross.
- It has also been run to and from Leeds.
- It has been run as a Pullman service.
- There are reports of overcrowding in recent years.
It strikes me that the Master Cutler could do with a revamp.
- As St. Pancras can accept pairs of five-car Class 810 trains, ten-car trains could be run into King’s Cross or St. Pancras.
- An alternative would be to use a nine-car Hitachi Class 800/801 train.
- All trains would be battery electric.
- All trains would use the East Coast Main Line for a faster service.
- Services could terminate in the North at Leeds.
- The service could be run as a Pullman service.
- This article on Ian Visits, writes about East Coast Main Line trains using St. Pancras.
I would create a train service, that would attract passengers from all over the world.
Who knows?
If it was conceived in the right way, it might warrant a second service or similar service on other lines like these possibilities.
London and Blackpool via Crewe, Wigan and Preston.
- London and Aberystwyth via Birmingham and Shrewsbury.
- London and Bristol via Bath
- London and Fishguard via Cardiff and Swansea
- London and Holyhead via Birmingham and Chester
- London and Liverpool
- London and Manchester
- London and Newcastle via York and Durham
- London and Norwich via Colchester and Ipswich
- London and Plymouth via Exeter
Note.
- All routes could be run using electric or battery-electric trains.
- The Fishguard and Holyhead services would be zero-carbon routes to Ireland, connecting to appropriate zero-carbon ferries.
- Could services be arranged so that all parts of the country have at least one service in both directions every day?
- In the days of British Rail, London and Norwich had a very high-class service, that could serve a full English breakfast between Colchester and London, which certainly wasn’t like the regular joke.
Get the offering right and it could level-up the UK.
FIRST TO THE FUTURE: Lumo Owner Bids To Turbo-Charge UK Rail With New Routes
The title of this post, is the same as that of this press release from First Group.
These first three paragraphs introduce FirstGroup’s application for the first phase of three separate applications to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) for new and extended open access rail services.
FirstGroup plc plans to expand its open access rail operations through its successful Lumo business, boosting connectivity, improving UK productivity and passenger choice across the UK.
The expansion aims to replicate the success of Lumo’s Edinburgh to London service in driving material growth on the East Coast Main Line. Lumo operates without government subsidy and contributes more per train mile to infrastructure investment than any other long-distance operator – delivering growth on the railway and connectivity to local communities, at a substantial benefit to the taxpayer.
FirstGroup has submitted the first phase of three separate applications to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) for new and extended open access rail services, which are described in these bullet points.
- A revised application to run new services between Rochdale and London Euston via Manchester Victoria from December 2028;
- An extension to Lumo’s current Stirling to London Euston track access agreement to operate services beyond 2030;
- A new route between Cardiff and York via Birmingham, Derby, and Sheffield from December 2028; and
- Purchase of new trains meaning continued investment in UK manufacturing of c.£300 million, and long-term jobs.
This paragraph from the press release describes the philosophy of the rolling stock.
Should these applications be successful, FirstGroup will make use of its option to commit further investment in new Hitachi trains built in County Durham. This investment will include five battery electric trains for the Stirling route and three battery electric trains for Rochdale, supporting jobs at Hitachi’s Newton Aycliffe plant. For the services between Cardiff and York, it will deploy refurbished Class 222s.
Note.
- The Class 222 trains will run the Euston and Stirling service until the future Hitachi trains are delivered in 2028.
- The Class 222 trains will run the Cardiff and York service from 2028.
- The Class 222 trains have a maximum speed of 125 mph
- Avanti West Coast’s Class 390 trains have a maximum speed of 125 mph.
- Avanti West Coast’s Class 805 trains have a maximum speed of 125 mph on electrification.
- Avanti West Coast’s Class 807 trains have a maximum speed of 125 mph.
- Grand Central Trains’s future Hitachi trains have a maximum speed of 125 mph.
- Hull Trains’s Class 802 trains have a maximum speed of 125 mph.
- Lumo’s current Class 803 trains have a maximum speed of 125 mph.
- LNER’s current Class 800 and 801 trains have a maximum speed of 125 mph.
- LNER’s current InterCity 225 trains have a maximum speed of 125 mph.
- LNER’s future Class 897 trains have a maximum speed of 125 mph.
- All of the trains, with the exception of the Class 222 trains are electric and have been designed for 140 mph running and can do this if there is appropriate 140 mph signalling.
If the Class 222 trains don’t run on the East and West Coast Main Lines, then these lines could introduce 140 mph running in stages to speed up rail travel between London and the North of England and Scotland.
Rochdale And London
These three paragraphs from the press release describe the proposed Rochdale and London service.
The new Lumo service will operate the first direct service since 2000 between Rochdale and London. Services will call at Manchester Victoria, Eccles, Newton-le-Willows and Warrington Bank Quay. Eccles station connects other parts of the city of Salford, including the fast-growing MediaCity area, via the nearby interchange with Metrolink. Services to Newton-le-Willows will deliver greater rail connectivity for St Helens.
There will be three new return services on weekdays and Sundays, and four return services on Saturdays, which will provide 1.6 million people in the north-west with a convenient and competitively priced direct rail service to London, encouraging people to switch from cars to train as well as providing additional rail capacity. It will also deliver material economic benefits for the communities along the route, including regeneration areas such as Atom Valley and the Liverpool City Region Freeport scheme.
The application has been revised to address the ORR’s concerns about network capacity set out in its letter of July 2025 rejecting FirstGroup’s original application. Supported by extensive modelling, the company has identified sufficient space on the network to accommodate the proposed services. Services will also make use of the Government’s recent investment in power supply for the West Coast Mainline (WCML).
In FirstGroup’s Lumo Seeks To Launch Rochdale – London Open Access Service, I gave my thoughts for Lumo’s application last year.
Differences between the two applications include.
- The service will be run by Lumo’s standard battery-electric Hitachi trains.
- The original application was for six return journeys per day, whereas the new application is for three return services on weekdays and Sundays, and four return services on Saturdays.
Note.
- The battery-electric trains will be able bridge the 10.4 mile gap between Manchester Victoria and Rochdale, and return after charging on the West Coast Main Line.
- The battery-electric trains could be useful during engineering works or other disruptions.
- The trains would be ready for 140 mph running on the West Coast Main Line, when the digital signalling is installed.
- Is the extra return service on a Saturday to cater for football and rugby fans?
I still feel, that with Lumo’s battery-electric trains one or more services could extend across the Pennines to Hebden Bridge, Bradford Interchange or Leeds. Trains would be recharged for return at Leeds.
Stirling And London
This paragraph from the press release describes the proposed Stirling and London service.
Stirling has a wide catchment area, with an estimated three million people living within an hour’s drive. Extending the current track access agreement for the Stirling route from May 2030 will support the shift from car to rail, and investment in the city, as well as in the service’s intermediate stations which include Larbert, Greenfaulds and Whifflet, thanks to greater connectivity to London. The four return services weekdays and Saturdays, and three on Sundays, on the new route are expected to start early in the company’s 2027 financial year.
In Lumo To Expand Scotland’s Rail Network With New London-Stirling Rail Route From Spring 2026, I gave my thoughts for Lumo’s application in June 2025.
Differences between the two applications include.
- The service will only be run initially by Class 222 trains.
- The service will be run by Lumo’s standard battery-electric Hitachi trains after 2028.
- The original application was for five return journeys per day, whereas the new application is for four return services on weekdays and Saturdays, and three return services on Sundays.
- In the original application, Lumo’s new route was to link London Euston directly to Stirling, also calling at Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Whifflet (serving Coatbridge), Greenfaulds (serving Cumbernauld) and Larbert.
Note.
- The battery-electric trains could be useful during engineering works or other disruptions.
- The trains would be ready for 140 mph running on the West Coast Main Line, when the digital signalling is installed.
- Is the extra return service on a Saturday to cater for football and rugby fans?
It should be noted that there are always more return services per day going to Stirling, than Rochdale.
Could The Rochdale and Stirling Services Share A Path?
Consider.
- The two services use the West Coast Main Line South of Warrington Bank Quay station.
- Pairs of Class 803 trains can split and join.
- A pair of Class 803 trains are shorter than an 11-car Class 390 train.
- An 11-car Class 390 train can call in Warrington Bank Quay or Crewe stations.
I believe that the Rochdale and Stiring services could share a path.
- One Weekday service per day would be a single train.
- Going South, the trains would join at Warrington Bank Quay or Crewe stations.
- Going North, the trains would split at Warrington Bank Quay or Crewe stations.
- The pair of trains would share a platform at Euston station.
Operating like this would increase the connectivity and attractiveness of the services, and probably increase the ridership and profitability.
Cardiff And York via Birmingham, Derby And Sheffield
These four paragraphs from the press release describe the proposed Cardiff and York service.
Lumo’s new route between Cardiff and York will join up the entire Great British Railway network, connecting all four main lines from the Great Western Main Line to the East Coast Main Line. The plans will also deliver more capacity and drive passenger demand on a previously underserved corridor.
The application proposes six return services each weekday – a significant increase from the current single weekly service.
Bringing Lumo’s popular low-cost model to the corridor will support local communities between Cardiff, Birmingham, Derby, Sheffield, and York. These cities alone have a combined population of more than 2.5 million people. The new services will give local communities access to jobs and services along the route, in support of significant investment that has already been committed by the Government and private sector. This investment includes the Cardiff Capital Regional Investment Zone, the £140million proposed refurbishment at Cardiff Central station, the West Midlands Investment Zone which is expected to create £5.5 billion of growth and 30,000 new jobs, as well as investment plans in Derby, Sheffield and York.
The ORR will now carry out a consultation exercise as well as discuss the applications with Network Rail to secure the required approvals.
Note.
- Only minimal details are given of the route.
- The TransPennine Upgrade will create a new electrified route across the Pennines between York and Huddersfield via Church Fenton, Leeds and Dewsbury.
- The Penistone Line is being upgraded, so that it will handle two trains per hour.
- In the 1980s, the Penistone Line took InterCity 125s to Barnsley.
- The connection with the Penistone Line at Huddersfield has been upgraded.
I am reasonably certain, that FirstGroup intend to route the York and Cardiff service over this partially electrified route.
Sections of the route will be as follows.
- Cardiff and Westerleigh junction – 38 miles – Electrified
- Westerleigh junction and Bromsgrove – 65.2 miles – Not Electrified
- Bromsgrove and Proof House junction – 15 miles – Electrified
- Proof House junction and Derby – 40.6 miles – Not Electrified
- Derby and Sheffield – 36.4 miles – Not Electrified
- Sheffield and Huddersfield – 36.4 miles – Not Electrified
- Huddersfield and York – 41.9 miles – Electrified
There are only two sections of track, that is not electrified.
- Westerleigh junction and Bromsgrove – 65.2 miles
- Proof House junction and Huddersfield – 113.4 miles
Out of a total of 273.5 miles, I believe in a few years, with a small amount of extra electrification or more powerful batteries, Hitachi’s battery-electric high-speed trains will have this route cracked and the Class 222 trains can be sent elsewhere to develop another route.
Lumo Will Extend Its King’s Cross And Edinburgh Service To Glasgow
This article on the BBC is entitled New Train Services Approved On East Coast Main Line.
This is the sub-heading.
Additional train services will run on the East Coast Main Line from December, the rail regulator has said.
This will be the additional services for Lumo according to this document from the Office of Road and Rail.
- Lumo (Newcastle): one additional return service between London King’s Cross and Newcastle on weekdays and one additional service in opposing directions on a Saturday and Sunday.
- Lumo (Glasgow extensions): the extension of existing London King’s Cross-Edinburgh services so that Lumo can provide two northbound services and one southbound service between London King’s Cross and Glasgow on weekdays and one in each direction on Sundays.
I have some thoughts.
Train Lengths
The Office of Road and Rail document doesn’t mention train lengths.
- Hull Trains have been running most services as five-car trains, with some running as ten-car trains.
- In Ten-Car Hull Trains, I talked about Hull Trains and their mixing of 5- and 10-car trains and how it increased the number of seats on the route by 16.7 %.
I suspect that Lumo will use pairs of trains on some services to increase and also balance the number of seats.
A Possible Timetable
Consider.
- Currently, there are five Northbound trains every day with five Southbound trains on Monday to Saturday and four on Sunday.
- Lumo seem to run a reliable service.
- Would it be a safe and sensible idea to base the new timetable on the current timetable?
- Perhaps, the Glasgow services could be add-ons to the current timetable.
So it looks to me, that the extra trains will be scheduled using an innovative timetable.
- I wouldn’t be surprised if the Glasgow to London King’s Cross train was a pair of trains in the evening to balance the service and get two trains to London King’s Cross for the start of the next day’s services.
- This would also give travellers as long a day as possible in Glasgow.
- Would the two London King’s Cross to Glasgow trains, start as a pair of trains at London King’s Cross that split at Edinburgh, with one train returning to London King’s Cross and the other going on to Glasgow?
- Glasgow gets ten cars per day from London King’s Cross and sends ten cars back to London King’s Cross.
- Could the Sunday services both be a pair of trains?
The only new paths needed for the service, would be.
- Two between Edinburgh and Glasgow.
- One Southbound between Glasgow and London King’s Cross at the end of the day.
Otherwise the main timetable is as it is now.
How Long Will London King’s Cross and Glasgow Take?
Consider.
- The fastest Lumo trains take around 4 hours and 23 minutes between London and Edinburgh.
- The fastest ScotRail trains take around 50 minutes between Edinburgh and Glasgow Queen Street stations.
I would expect a time of around 5 hours and 13 minutes is possible.
This is slower than the typical 4 hours and 31 minutes of Avanti West Coast between Euston and Glasgow Central stations, but improvements to the signalling may reduce the time that Lumo takes between London and Edinburgh.
What Time Are The Last Train From Glasgow and Edinburgh To London?
These would appear to be the last trains from Glasgow and Edinburgh to London.
- The last Avanti West Coast train would appear to be the 18:40 from Glasgow Central, which gets in to London Euston at 23:40.
- The Caledonian Sleeper leaves at 23:40 from Glasgow Central, which gets in to London Euston at 07:00.
- The last LNER train for London King’s Cross, would appear to be the 19:37 from Edinburgh, which gets in to London King’s Cross at 01:14.
- The last LNER train for Leeds, would appear to be the 21:00 from Edinburgh, which gets in to Leeds at 00:42.
- The last LNER train for Newcastle, would appear to be the 22:00 from Edinburgh, which gets in to Newcastle at 01:14.
- The Caledonian Sleeper leaves at 23:40 from Edinburgh, which gets in to London Euston at 07:00.
Note.
- The timetable seems to assume, that if you are spending a day in Edinburgh or Glasgow and need to return to London, you will use the Caledonian Sleeper.
- Unless you use the Sleeper, you can’t see an evening football match and easily go home to anywhere South of Edinburgh.
- One of the last trains to arrive in London King’s Cross station is the 19:58 Lumo service from Edinburgh, which arrives at 01:00 in London King’s Cross station.
- Surprisingly, London King’s Cross station seems to have several trains moving in and out all night.
There’s certainly a large gap in the evening, where an extra service could run between Glasgow and London King’s Cross.
I wonder how late Lumo could bring a train into King’s Cross station?
- I came in once to King’s Cross at about 01:30 and still got a taxi home.
- There are also lots of 24-hour buses.
- There is little or no car parking.
I still think Lumo will operate a train as late as Network Rail will allow them.
Could Passengers Sleep In Lumo’s Seats?
I’ve certainly managed it. But then I’ve never had a problem falling asleep.
Does The Extended Service To Glasgow Pass The Granny’s Birthday Test?
Suppose it’s your granny’s birthday and you want to go to her family party, which is in the afternoon.
You should be able to take a morning train up to Glasgow and then take the late train back afterwards.
Conclusion
Lumo have spotted a gap in the timetable and they intend to fill it.
Train Lengths Between King’s Cross and Edinburgh
If you ask Google, what is the platform length at King’s Cross station, you get the following answers.
- Platform 0 – 305 metres
- Platform 1 – 304 metres
- Platform 2 – 285 metres
- Platform 3 – 289 metres
- Platform 4 – 290 metres
- Platform 5 – 270 metres
- Platform 6 – 288 metres
- Platform 7 – 288 metres
- Platform 8 – 289 metres
- Platform 9 – 276 metres
- Platform 10 – 276 metres
This OpenRailwayMap shows the tracks linking to the eleven platforms at King’s Cross.
Note.
- The red tracks are the electrified platforms in King’s Cross.
- The two pink tracks are the Piccadilly Line underneath the station.
- Platform 0 is on the right and Platform 10 is on the left.
- The platform number is shown alongside the track.
Platform 0 is the newest platform, which opened in 2010 and also the longest at 305 metres.
Many of the trains using the station are Hitachi Class 800, 801, 802 and 803 trains, which have cars of the following lengths.
- Driving car – 25.85 metres
- Intermediate car – 26 metres
These lengths mean that individual trains have the following lengths.
- Five-car – 129.7 metres
- Nine-car – 233.7 metres
- Ten-car – Pair of five-cars – 259.4 metres
Note.
- It would appear that nine- and ten-car trains can use all platforms 0-8 in the main station.
- Platform 5 may be short at 270 metres, but Real Time Trains shows it can handle nine- and ten-car trains.
Real Time Trains doesn’t seem to show any nine- and ten-car trains using Platforms 9 and 10. Is the approach just a bit tight?
These are some further thoughts.
LNER’s New Class 897 Trains
I asked Google how long will be LNER’s new ten-car Class 897 trains. This is the answer I received.
The Class 897 train will be 218.7 meters (717 ft 6 in) long, according to Wikipedia. These trains will be ten-car units.
Have these trains been designed, so they can fit in Platforms 9 and 10 at King’s Cross and other shorter platforms, that LNER serve?
Other train classes, that could use Platforms 9 and 10 at King’s Cross include.
- Five-car Class 800, 801, 802 and 803 trains – 129.7 metres
- Five-car Class 180 trains – 116.52 metres
- Five-car Class 222 trains – 116.16 metres
- Six-car Class 717 trains – 121.7 metres
- Eight-car Class 379/387 trains – 163.12 metres
- Eight-car Class 700/0 trains – 162 metres
- Twelve-car Class 700/1 trains – 242.6 metres
Real Time Trains or my eyes have observed all these trains, except for the twelve-car Class 700 trains in Platforms 9 and 10 at King’s Cross.
It does appear that the shorter ten-car Class 897 trains improve utilisation of the platforms at King’s Cross station.
Could Twelve-Car Class 800, 801, 802 and 803 Trains Run Into King’s Cross?
Consider.
- LNER and Lumo have both said, they want to win passengers from the airlines on Anglo-Scottish routes.
- Extra paths on the East Coast Main Line are at a premium and hard to come by.
In Do Class 800/801/802 Trains Use Batteries For Regenerative Braking?, I found this extract in a Hitachi document on their web site.
To simplify the rearrangement and management of train configurations, functions are provided for identifying the train (Class 800/801), for automatically determining the cars in the trainset and its total length, and for coupling and uncoupling up to 12 cars in
normal and 24 cars in rescue or emergency mode.
So if say LNER or Lumo wanted a twelve-car train, it would be possible. It also looks like one twelve-car train can rescue another.
Train lengths would be as follows.
- Five-car Class 800, 801, 802 and 803 trains – 129.7 metres
- Six-car Class 800, 801, 802 and 803 trains – 155.7 metres
- Nine-car Class 800, 801, 802 and 803 trains – 233.7 metres
- Twelve-car Class 800, 801, 802 and 803 trains – 311.7 metres
- Twelve-car – Pair of six-car Class 800, 801, 802 and 803 trains – 311.4 metres
As Platform 0 is 305 metres and Platform 1 is 304 metres, I suspect that King’s Cross station could accept twelve-car formations of Hitachi Class 800, 801, 802 or 803 trains, with fairly minor modifications.
But what about other stations?
Berwick-on-Tweed
Both platforms are around 233/234 metres, so twelve-car trains couldn’t call, unless the platforms were lengthened.
Bradford Forster Square
From the pictures, that I took in Bradford Forster Square Station – 20th May 2025, of a pair of LNER five-car trains, I suspect that the new Platform 0 and the extended Platform 1 will accept twelve-car trains, or could easily be modified.
Darlington
Both platforms, where LNER call are over 350 metres long, so Darlington can handle twelve-car trains.
Doncaster
Doncaster has four long platforms and I am fairly sure, the station could be easily modified to handle twelve-car trains.
Durham
Both platforms are over 260 metres, so twelve-car trains couldn’t call, unless the platforms were substantially lengthened.
Edinburgh Waverley
Platform 5 and 6 at Edinburgh Waverley station were both lengthened to 275 metres to accept ten-car LNER trains in 2016. I suspect more lengthening will be needed.
Leeds
Platforms 8 and 11 at Leeds station are both over 320 metres, so should be long enough to accept twelve car LNER trains.
Newark Northgate
Platforms 1 and 2 at Newark Northgate station are only 133 metres. Some platform lengthening would be needed for twelve-car trains to be able to call.
Newcastle
Platforms 2, 3 and 4 at Newcastle station are 362, 304 and 268 metres respectively. I believe with small improvements, that the station could be easily modified to handle twelve-car trains.
Northallerton
Both platforms are around 261/270 metres, so twelve-car trains couldn’t call, unless the platforms were lengthened.
Peterborough
Platforms 3, 4 and 5 at Peterborough station are only 265 metres. Some platform lengthening would be needed for twelve-car trains to be able to stop.
Wakefield Westgate
Both platforms at Wakefield Westgate station are only 255 metres. Some platform lengthening would be needed for twelve-car trains to be able to stop.
York
Four platforms at York station are over 315 metres.
Could A Twelve-Car Class 800, 801, 802 and 803 Trains Run Between King’s Cross And Edinburgh?
This would surely be the ultimate competition for the airlines.
Consider.
- It would use a single twelve-car Hitachi train or a pair of six-car trains.
- It could be fitted with batteries, so it could use the Great Northern and Great Eastern Joint Line diversion, through Lincoln, when there is engineering works or overhead wiring troubles.
- It would use either Platform 0 or Platform 1 at King’s Cross.
- It would use a lengthened platform at Edinburgh.
- Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington and Newcastle could be possible stops.
- I estimate an LNER layout would carry 696 Standard Class and 86 First Class passengers.
- I estimate that a Lumo layout would carry 965 Standard Class passengers.
Note that an Airbus A321neo single-aislr airliner can carry 244 passengers.
An Extreme Day Out – Bradford Forster Square Station
It seems to be the fashion to go and visit somewhere far away in a day. So why not?
For my first trip in this vein, I decided on the spur of the moment to go to Bradford Forster Square station.
Why Did I Choose Bradford Forster Square Station?
There are three main reasons.
- A new platform has just opened at the station to handle the longest LNER trains.
- LNER are now running a seven trains per day (tpd) service via Leeds.
- I wanted to see how LNER’s walk-up ticketing performed on the route.
In addition, I wanted to see how the service performed, now that Bradford is this year’s UK City of Culture.
King’s Cross To Bradford Forster Square Station For £43.00 With A Railcard
I just missed the 11:03, so I booked the 13:03 for £43.00 with my Senior Railcard, from one of the numerous ticket machines in King’s Cross.
The train arrived on time in two hours 47 minutes for the 199.4 miles, which was an average speed of 72 mph.
In What Will Be The Fastest Times Possible Between London King’s Cross And Leeds?, I predicted this.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see with full digital signalling and a 125 mph average between London King’s Cross and Leeds.
- 125 mph Base Time – 89 minutes.
- Four Acceleration/Deceleration sections at 6 minutes each – 24 minutes.
- Three Dwell Times at 2 minutes each – 6 minutes
This would mean a total time of one hour and 59 minutes.
As my Bradford service took two hours and 28 minutes between London King’s Cross And Leeds, that would mean, that a time close to two hours and fifteen minutes could be possible between London King’s Cross and Bradford Forster Square stations.
There Weren’t Many Passengers Between Leeds And Bradford Forster Square Stations
These pictures show the nearly empty train and the small numbers, who alighted at Bradford Forster Square station.
But I don’t think three in the afternoon is a time, when many passengers will need to go between Leeds and Bradford Forster Square stations.
Bradford Forster Square Station
I described that station, with its new Platform 0 in Bradford Forster Square Station – 20th May 2025, where I said the station needed these additions.
The station needs a few additions, like a proper coffee shop, a better shop, ticket machines and toilets.
But it’s not been open very long.
Bradford Forster Square Station To King’s Cross For £25.70 With A Railcard
I bought this ticket from a Yorkshire Lass in the Ticket Office.
There Weren’t Many Passengers Between Bradford Forster Square And King’s Cross Stations
Only about a dozen passengers boarded the train at Bradford Forster Square and some got out at Leeds.
In fact the train wasn’t very busy all the way to London with perhaps twenty passengers in my carriage, when we arrived in King’s Cross.
Will This Service Develop Into A Two-Hourly London King’s Cross And Leeds Or Bradford Forster Square Service With A Trans-Yorkshire Service Tacked On?
Currently, it is the following.
- An express service between King’s Cross and Leeds with stops at Peterborough, Doncaster and Wakefield Westgate.
- An express service between King’s Cross and Bradford Forster Square with stops at Peterborough, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate and Leeds.
- A local service between Doncaster and Bradford Forster Square with stops at Wakefield Westgate and Leeds.
- Additional calls on some services are at Stevenage, Grantham, Retford and Shipley.
In addition the following would be possible.
- Pairs of trains could split at Leeds, with one train going to Bradford Forster Square and the other train to somewhere like Harrogate, Huddersfield or Skipton.
- Additional stops could be added between Leeds and Bradford Forster Square without slowing services between Leeds and King’s Cross.
But then where does this fit with LNER buying ten CAF tri-mode trains?
Surely they would get better flexibility, if they’d bought more Azumas, which could run on the electrification all the way to Bradford Forster Square, Huddersfield and Skipton. If some had batteries, they could run all the way to Harrogate.
LNER’s Disabled-Unfriendly Refreshments System
I am not disabled, but I only have one fully-working hand, as the school bully broke my left humerus and I have difficulty doing certain things with my left hand, due to the quality of the care I received in Highlands Hospital in Winchmore Hill.
Having a left-sided stroke didn’t help either.
One of the things, I can’t do is take pictures on my mobile phone, so I always carry a proper camera. Because of the injury, I have also never read a QR code with my phone.
On LNER’s trains to get a drink, you either have to order it by reading a QR code or walking to the buffet.
As on the train going North, the buffet was closed, I went thirsty.
In future, if I have a choice of trains, I’ll choose one with a trolly service.
Are The CAF Tri-Mode Trains Part Of A Plan To Drive Open Access Operators Out Of Yorkshire?
This is possibly the only scenario that makes sense.
The ten-car tri-mode trains would be used to take over Grand Central’s services to Bradford Interchange and Sunderland, and Hull Trains services to Hull.
After Monday, LNER are now running more daily services to Bradford Forster Square, than Grand Central are to Bradford Interchange.
If like my return to London on Tuesday, you can buy a walk-up ticket on LNER, then why would you travel on Grand Central.
Conclusion
£68.70 is not a bad price for what is in effect a walk-up day return to Bradford Forster Square.
I’ve just looked how much, I would be charged for an advance ticket on Friday, using the trains I used on Tuesday.
I could get a ticket for £25.70 going North and £28.95 going South or a total of £54.65. All are with my Senior Railcard.
But it does look to me, that LNER and the Government are trying to drive Grand Central off the Bradford route.
If I am right and Hull Trains and Lumo will be next in LNER’s sights, then what was Starmer and other Government ministers doing at the launch of orders for new trains for Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo?
The Anonymous Widower 