The Anonymous Widower

The Traction System Of A Class 385 Train

This document on the Hitachi web site is entitled Development of Class 385 Semi-customised/Standard Commuter Rolling Stock for Global Markets.

The Hitachi document gives a schematic of the traction system of a Class 385 train.

This is the description, that accompanies the diagram.

Railway businesses in the UK include ROSCOs, TOCs, and track maintenance and management companies. The TOCs pay fees, called track access charges, which are based on the weight of rolling stock and the distance travelled, and are obliged to pay the track maintenance and management company for the electrical power consumed in train operation. Because lighter trains put less load on the track, they incur lower track access charges. As lighter trains also consume less electrical power, there was strong demand from the TOC to make the rolling stock lighter, right from the pre-contract stage.

There are two types of Class 385, a four-car train set and a three-car train set. The four-car train set has two motor cars (M) and two trailer cars (T) in what is called a 2M2T configuration. For a three-car train set, in contrast, sufficient traction capacity is provided by 1.5 M cars. Accordingly, the Class 385 adopts a system in which the traction unit (converter) is split into two drive systems, with each car having two motor bogies that are controlled separately (see Fig. 4). This means that three-car train sets can have a 1.5M1.5T configuration in which one of the bogies on one of the two M cars is a trailer bogie, thereby eliminating two traction motors and one traction unit drive system. This configuration reduces the weight of a three-car train set by approximately 1.5 tonnes.

Next time you design a train, will you stand more chancw of getting the order, if you think out of the box?

August 10, 2019 Posted by | Transport | , | Leave a comment

Scottish Government Approve £75m Levenmouth Rail Link

The title of this post is the same as that of this article on Rail Technology Magazine.

The plan seems to have been well-received by politicians and the media.

I’ve always thought this line to be a good candidate for reopening.

  • It is only five miles long.
  • It would serve Scotland’s largest town without a rail station.
  • There must be freight opportunities for freight, as the line could serve Scotland’s largest distillery.

There is more here on the Wikipedia entry for the Levenmouth Rail Link under Cost, Feasibility And Services.

Could The Levenmouth Rail Link Be Part Of A Bigger Picture?

The Fife Circle Line is an important route into Edinburgh for commuters, shoppers and visitors.

This map from Wikipedia shows the stations on the Fife Circle Line.

Consider.

  • The route is not electrified.
  • A train starting in Edinburgh and going rund the loop would cover about sixty miles.
  • Trains have a frequency of four trains per hour (tph)

It would appear that it would be the sort of service that would be ideal for electric trains, like ScotRail’s Class 385 trains, where a fleet of perhaps eight trains could provide the current service.

But there is a big obstacle to electrification; the Forth Rail Bridge.

It would be a difficult engineering project, that would cause massive disruption and one that would probably be strongly opposed by the Heritage lobby.

This map from Wikipedia shows the proposed Levenmouth Rail Link.

Note how it connects to the Fife Circle Line at Glenrothes with Thorton and Kirkcaldy stations.

I estimate that the distance between Leven and Edinburgh stations would be about 31 miles.

Could Battery-Electric Trains Work To Glenrothes with Thorton And Leven?

Consider these  facts abut battery-electric trains.

  • Bombardier ran a battery-electric train on the 11.5 mile Mayflower Line in public service for three months, without a hitch in 2015.
  • Hitachi, Siemens, Stadler and Vivarail have sold battery-electric trains.
  • Hitachi are running battery-electric trains in Japan.
  • Ranges of upwards of fifty miles are being claimed.
  • Battery-electric trains are a quality experience for passengers.

.As the Edinburgh and Leven and dinburgh and Glenrothes with Thorton routes  are about thirty miles, I believe it is now possible to run battery-electric trains on these two routes.

  • They would be charged at the Edinburgh end using the existing electrification.
  • Charging stations would be needed at Leven and Glenrothes with Thornton.
  • Electrification could also be erected as far as Dalmeny station at the Edinburgh end, which would reduce the range on batteries by about seven miles.

There would be no difficult engineering and the Forth Rail Bridge would look the same as the day it was built!

Hitachi Plans To Run ScotRail Class 385 EMUs Beyond The Wires

I covered this in more detail in Hitachi Plans To Run ScotRail Class 385 EMUs Beyond The Wires.

Hitachi appear to be serious according to this article of the same name on Rail Engineer.

The article concludes with this paragraph.

Hitachi’s proposal to operate battery trains in Scotland is at an early stage. However, with their use being recommended by the rail decarbonisation task force and the Scottish Government about to pass new climate change legislation, it may not be long before battery trains are operating in Scotland.

Hitachi aren’t stupid and I doubt they could want for a better portfolio of launch routes, than some of those in Scotland.

  • Edinburgh and Leven over the Forth Rail Bridge.
  • Edinburgh and Grenrothes with Thornton over the Forth Rail Bridge.
  • The Borders Railway.

I also show in the related article, that Glasgow to Oban and Mallaig may be possible.

The Rail Network And Electrification To The West Of Edinburgh

This map shows the rail system to the West of Edinburgh.

All lines except for the route through South Gyle and Edinburgh Gateway stations are electrified.

Electrification as far as Dalmeny station, the addition of the new chord (shown in yellow) and fill in electrification to join the chord to the Glosgow wires would open up the possibilities of more routes between Edinburgh and Glasgow and a connection between Glasgow and the Fife Circle.

But battery-electric trains would be needed.

ScotRail has Options For More Class 385 Trains

This is said in the Wikipedia entry for the Class 385 trains.

10 unit optional follow up order after 2020.

So ScotRail seem to have a gateway to the future.

Will Battery-Electric Trains Be Good For Tourism?

I very much doubt, that they’ll be bad for it!

Conclusion

The announcement of the reinstatement of the Levenmouth Rail Link, could be be a collateral benefit of a decision to trial or even order some battery-electric Hitachi Class 385 trains.

August 9, 2019 Posted by | Transport | , , , , , , | 6 Comments

Manchester Victoria To Chester

On Saturday, I went between Manchester Victoria and Chester on the new hourly Northern Connect service between Chester and Leeds.

Note.

  1. The train was a Class 158 train, with a Class 153 train acting as a capacity enhancer.
  2. The train was only doing 60 mph on the West Coast Main Line.
  3. The service was fairly busy.
  4. The route is electrified between Manchester Victoria and Warrington Bank Quay stations.

On this Saturday morning, it appeared to me that a better train is needed.

In Northern Connect Between Chester And Leeds To Start In May, I did report a rumour that Class 769 trains might be running between Chester and Leeds.

In my view Class 769 trains are ideal for the route between Chester and Leeds.

  • They are four-car trains.
  • They can do 100 mph, where electrification is available.
  • They are 90 mph trains on diesel.

There main problem, is not their age, but since they were proposed, train interiors have moved on. Passengers and train operating companies want more tables and comfortable seats. Even some refurbishments of forty-year-old trains have tables. In What Train Is This?, I described a high class refurbishment of a Class 150 train. Here’s a picture.

The Chester and Leeds route and probably many other routes in the UK need a train with the following characteristics.

  • 100 mph using either 25 KVAC overhead or 750 VDC third-rail electrification.
  • 100 mph on secondary power like diesel, battery or hydrogen.
  • two hundred mile range without refuelling.
  • Four or five cars.
  • Comfortable interior with tables, wi-fi, power points and everything else passengers want.

Train operating companies would probably like a 125 mph version.

Hitachi already have a train with this specification in the Class 800 train. In Hitachi Plans To Run ScotRail Class 385 EMUs Beyond The Wires, I detail, Hitachi’s plans for Class 385 trains. Could these be stretched to perhaps do 100 miles on batteries.

Bombardier are offering a High Speed Bi-Mode Aventra with batteries and Stadler are introducing the Class 755 train for Greater Anglia.

Conclusion

It looks to me, that Northern need to get themselves some new 100 mph hybrid trains. The diesels they have on order are so Twentieth Century and late!

June 3, 2019 Posted by | Transport | , , , , , , | 5 Comments

Hitachi Plans To Run ScotRail Class 385 EMUs Beyond The Wires

The title of this post is the same as that of this article on Rail Engineer.

This is the first paragraph.

Hitachi are in discussions with the Scottish Government to run a Class 385 variant with underfloor batteries that could either be charged whilst under the wires or whilst stationary at the end of the route.

The article makes these points, about adding batteries to Class 385 trains.

  • It would be straightforward to add batteries to give a range of twenty miles on batteries.
  • Sixty miles would be possible but more difficult.
  • Experience gained with the DENCHA trains in Japan would be used.

The article concludes with this paragraph.

Hitachi’s proposal to operate battery trains in Scotland is at an early stage. However, with their use being recommended by the rail decarbonisation task force and the Scottish Government about to pass new climate change legislation, it may not be long before battery trains are operating in Scotland.

I think it should be noted that Hitachi’s order book is rather thin these days and it appears that innovative technology will sell new trains.

Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, Siemens, Stadler and Vivarail have all designed, demonstrated or sold trains, where batteries are used improve efficiency or extend range.

As Scotland has several routes, where battery trains could provide a service, perhaps Hitachi thought it was time to do some marketing, to make sure that they got any orders for battery trains.

Scotrail would probably prefer to have a battery train similar to their largest fleet of electric trains.

Electric Trains On The West Highland Line Between Glasgow And Mallaig/Oban

This might be considered as difficult as putting a London bus on the Moon.

But consider.

  • The West Highland Line is electrified as far as Helenburgh Central station.
  • Electrification to Helensburgh Upper station would probably not be a difficult project for Network Rail in Scotland.
  • Heleburgh Upper to Mallaig is just under 140 miles.
  • Hellensuburgh Upper to Oban is around 80 miles.
  • Crianlarich station, where the two routes divide is forty miles from Helesburgh Upper.
  • Fort William station is around halfway between Mallaig and Crianlarich.
  • Trains take several minutes to reverse at Fort William.

Vivarail have developed fast charging for battery trains, that I wrote about in Vivarail Unveils Fast Charging System For Class 230 Battery Trains.

If Hitachi can develop a Class 385 train with batteries, that has a range of perhaps sixty miles on a full battery, then I believe it would be possible to run an electric train service between Glasgow and Oban and Mallaig.

  • Charging stations would need to be able to fully charge the batteries in perhaps six minutes.
  • Trains would leave Hellensburgh Upper with a full battery and charging stations at Crianlarich and Fort William would top up the batteries.
  • The longest stretch is between Crianlarich and Fort William and it would probably need an additional charging station at perhaps Tulluch.

What would battery-electric trains to Oban and Mallaig do for tourism in the area?

Hitachi would have one of the most scenic and iconic test tracks in the world!

 

 

April 2, 2019 Posted by | Transport | , , , , , | 9 Comments

A First Ride In A Class 385 Train

Yesterday, I finally got a ride in a Class 385 train between Linlithgow and Glasgow Queen Street stations.

These are my observations.

Ride, Seats And Tables

I have written in many commuter trains all over Europe and these trains are very much towards the top in these important three areas.

Ride seemed to my innocent and not-so-well-padded posterior to be fine and very similar to the closely-related Class 800 trains.

It certainly didn’t pose any problems to this well-balanced stroke survivor, when I walked around.

Seats were certainly better than some other trains.

It was also pleasing to see lots of tables, which is very much a British tradition, that seems to have really kicked-off in the InterCity 125s.

In some ways sitting there, it reminded me of Great Western Railway’s Class 387 trains.

Both are certainly a very good standard for a commuter train with a journey up to perhaps ninety minutes.

Large Windows

The trains seem to follow Bombardier’s Aventras, Stadler’s Flirts and some other new trains in having large windows.

It would be very difficult to prove, but I wonder, when trains have big windows aligned with the seats, it increases ridership amongst occasional travellers. Anything that improves the experience must increase the change of repeat journeys.

Quirky But Good Interior Design

Some of the design details are quite quirky.

  • The priority seat covers are different and make a bold statement.
  • There are labels everywhere, advertising the features.

And there are good features too.

  • Plenty of bins for the rubbish, that commuters discard.
  • Sensible sized luggage racks.
  • Wide lobbies and doors.
  • There might be space between and under the seats for medium-sized cases.

The design is not bland and boring like a Class 700 train.

Spacious Trains

Someone described the trains, as having more space. I think that’s down to generous lobbies and large windows.

I also don’t think, the trains have not been designed for a maximum number of people, but for a maximum return on investment.

These are different things.

I suspect that a maximum return on investment is obtained, with a comfortably-full train, operating like that all day.

Overcrowded trains do the following.

  • Encourage passenger to use other modes of transport.
  • Lengthen station dwell times, which make trains late.
  • Make it difficult for less able passengers to use the trains.

But getting the balance right between train capacity and route is a complex problem.

Step-Free Access

Hitachi don’t seem to do good step-free access, where wheel-chairs, buggies and wheeled-cases can just roll in and out.

These trains are no exception Although, it could be that ScotRail has so many different types of trains, that the standard platform height hasn’t been defined yet!

Stadler have said, that all their trains used by Greater Anglia and Merseyrail will have this property, so I would have thought that other manufacturers would follow.

Passengers will demand it!

Train Formations

There is a document on the Hitachi web site, which is entitled Development of Class 385 Semi-customised/Standard Commuter Rolling Stock for Global Markets, which gives insights into Hitachi’s thinking.

This is the introduction.

The Class 385 is based on the AT-200, which was developed for global markets with the aim of providing flexibility of configuration while making maximum use of standardisation. It is a semi-customised model of a type common in global markets, with fewer components and greater standardisation of components achieved by adopting the “mother design” developed for the AT-300 (a typical example of which is the Class 800) and competitive lead times achieved by shortening the specification-setting process.

Note the close relationship between the Class 385 and Class 800 trains.

The document gives a detailed graphic and states that the four-car units have the following formation.

  • DMCLw – Driver Motor Composite Lavatory with 20 First Class seats, 15 Standard Class seats, a Universal Access Toilet and Wheelchair Space
  • TPS – Trailer Pantograoh Standard with 80 Standard Class seats
  • TS – Trailer Standard with 80 Standard Class seats
  • DMSL – Driver Motor Standard Lavatory with 62 Standard Class seats and a space-saving toilet.

Note.

  1. The coach designations on the delivered trains has been taken from this page on scot-rail.co.uk.
  2. This gives a total of 257 seats as against 273 seats in Wikipedia.
  3. The difference of 16 seats is twice the number of doors, so it could be that Hitachi have squeezed in a few more seats, between the provisional and final design.

The three-car trains would appear to have the following formation.

  • DMSLw – Driver Motor Standard Lavatory with about 50 Standard Class seats, a Universal Access Toilet and Wheelchair Space
  • TPS – Trailer Pantograoh Standard with 80 Standard Class seats
  • DMSL – Driver Motor Standard Lavatory with 62 Standard Class seats and a space-saving toilet.

Note.

  1. This article in Rail Magazine, says that all trains have Universal Access Toilets and two wheelchair spaces.
  2. This gives a total of 192 seats as against 206 seats in Wikipedia.
  3. Add in two seats for each of the six doors and the difference is two seats.

I should have read the numbers from the side of the train on my visit to Scotland.

If you type “Class 800 regenerative braking” into Google, you will find this document on the Hitachi Rail web site, which is entitled Development of Class 800/801 High-speed Rolling Stock for UK Intercity Express Programme.

This is a paragraph.

Trains have a unit configuration of up to 12 cars,
including the ability to add or remove standardized
intermediate cars and the generator units (GUs)
(generators with diesel engines) needed to operate
commercial services on non-electrified lines. Along
with the A-train concept, developed in Japan, the
new rolling stock is also based on technology from the
Class 395 rolling stock developed by Hitachi for the
UK High Speed 1 that entered commercial operation
in 2009, providing compatibility with UK railway
systems together with high reliability.

This is also said about the Automatic Train Identification Function.

To simplify the rearrangement and management
of train configurations, functions are provided for
identifying the train (Class 800/801), for automatically
determining the cars in the trainset and its total length,
and for coupling and uncoupling up to 12 cars in
normal and 24 cars in rescue or emergency mode.

It’s all very Plug-and-Play.

Although, these two extracts come from a document describing the Class 800 trains, both these trains and the Class 385 trains are members of the Hitachi A-Train family.

If you look at the train formations of Class 800 trains, Wikipedia gives them as.

5-car: DPTS-MS-MS-MC-DPTF
9-car: DPTS-MS-MS-TS-MS-TS-MC-MF-DPTF

Note.

  1. DPTS and DPTF are Driver Pantograph Trailer cars, with Standard and First Class seats respectively
  2. MS, MF and MC are Motored cars with Standard, First and Composite(mixed Standard and First Class), seats respectively.
  3. TS is a Trailer car with Standard Class seats.

Trains use two standard Driver cars and then add a number number of Motored and Trailer cars in between, to get the required train length and capacity.

I would be very surprised, if the formations of the Class 385 train were to be very different.

There appear to be the following Driver cars.

  • DMCLw – Driver Motor Composite Lavatory with 20 First Class seats, 15 Standard Class seats, a Universal Access Toilet and Wheelchair Space – Used in four-car trains
  • DMSLw – Driver Motor Standard Lavatory with about 50 Standard Class seats, a Universal Access Toilet and Wheelchair Space – Used in three-car trains
  • DMSL – Driver Motor Standard Lavatory with 62 Standard Class seats and a space-saving toilet – Used in both three- and four-car trains.

As with the Class 800 trains, I suspect you can create a train of the required length and capacity by adding the appropriate number of trailer cars between the two driver cars.

According to this page on the Hitachi web site, the AT200 trains have an operating speed of up to 125 mph. So perhaps for the greaster power, that might be needed for higher speeds, motored cars can be added as well.

I am puzzled about the length of the current trains.

At the present time, the Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh Waverley route can accept seven-car trains, which are formed from a three-car and a four-car working together.

But when platform extensions are complete at Glasgow, eight-car trains will be possible, which will be formed of two-four-car trains.

So why didn’t Abellio ScotRail use a Crossrail-like solution, where seven-car trains were ordered and these were then lengthened by an extra car, after the extension of the platforms?

  • The current train formations waste space with two unused drivers cabs in every train.
  • Do trains running on the half-hour journey across Scotland need two Universal Access and two space-saving toilets?

By comparison Abellio Greater Anglia‘s ten-car Class 720 trains have one Universal Access and two space-saving toilets for 1,145 seats. The seats/toilet for the three trains are as follows.

  • 10-car Class 720 train – 382
  • 3-car Class 385 train – 103
  • 4-car Class 385 train – 137

ScotRail obviously need both three- and four-car Class 385 trains to replace some of the older trains on other routes.

I do find it strange, that two divisions of Abellio have gone for such different solutions.

Gangways

The pictures show that the train has end gangways.

I intended to walk through between the two trains, but the train was full and I couldn’t get near the door.

If the trains were the correct length for the route, then you have to wonder, if the complication of gangways between trains is worth the extra weight, expense and driver’s visibility problems.

But the gangway does aid staff access between different trains.

But I do wonder, if the ability to add and remove cars that seems to be a feature of Class 385 trains, means that gangways between trains may be an unnecessary feature.

Consider these other train orders.

Gangways seem to be going out of fashion, unless they are needed fpr emergency use.

If some of ScotRail’s services need trains with gangways, these could always be run by the current Class 380 trains.

Conclusions

The Class 385 trains appear to be a well-designed train, that should do an excellent job.

But I do question the need for the gangways between trains.

It should also be born in mind, that Scotland is planning more electrification, which will need more trains.

By perhaps converting pairs of four-car sets into eight-car trains, by replacing two Driver cars with appropriate Trailer or Motored cars, two more complicated Driver cars would be liberated, which could form the basis of the extra trains.

There are probably endless combinations, one of which will give ScotRail, the optimal fleet, that will deliver the required services for the best price.

 

 

 

 

 

 

September 7, 2018 Posted by | Transport | , , , | Leave a comment

Class 365 Trains To The Rescue

I had intended to get a ride on a new Class 385 train, but I only caught a glimpse of one going the other way, from a Class 365 train, that I used both ways between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Passengers seemed to be quite happy with the Class 365 trains cascaded from the Cambridge Cruiser.

I really think that Hitachi have got their production of the Class 385 trains, seriously wrong here.

The body shells are made in Japan and then sent to Newton Aycliffe by sea. This must be an easy way to ensure a slow production of trains.

Bombardier make the body shells in the same factory as they design and assemble the trains.

Even if CAF make their body shells in Spain, that is a much shorter and probably more reliable journey.

I must admit if I was the CEO of a train operating company, I wouldn’t buy a Hitachi train.

But then Tony Blair only wanted a new factory, close to his constituency!

August 13, 2018 Posted by | Transport | , , , , | Leave a comment

Glasgow Queen Street Station – August 10th 2018

I took these pictures as I passed through Glasgow Queen Street station.

Note the four-car InterCity 125 in the station, testing and training staff for new services to Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness, Perth and Stirling.

August 13, 2018 Posted by | Transport | , , , | Leave a comment

Scotland’s New Railway Race

There have been  five railway races involving Scotland over the years.

This article in Rail Engineer is entitled Full Glasgow To Edinburgh Electric Service In July.

The article suggests this could be another railway race with Scotland involved.

In the red corner are the devious English, who are entering a series of redundant Class 365 trains, that nobody else wants.

  • They are thirty-year-old trains
  • They were built by British Rail.
  • To improve their relationship with drivers, WAGN fitted them with cab air-conditioning. Marketing then named them Happy-Train, as the air-conditioning inlet, had given them a smile.
  • It has also been rumoured that their class number was chosen to give the air of year-round reliability.

To gain an advantage, the first train was actually sneaked into Glasgow by road, as no-one was sure that they could fit the routes to Scotland.

To get the trains ready for Scotland, work is being done by the German company; Knorr-Bremse Rail Services at Springburn in Glasgow.

The Scottish entry in the blue corner, is the Hitachi Class 385 train, which is manufactured mainly in Japan and screwed together at Newton-Aycliffe.

Unfortunately, the train was designed for drivers with Asian eyesight and the curved windows in the cabs, give unreliable images at night, with the average Scottish driver, even if they’ve been training hard on Irn-Bru!

It is hoped that new windscreens will be approved for use soon!

So the race is on to see who can get their train into service first.

As to the verdict on which train is better, I think we could be seeing a split decision.

Glasgow will prefer one train and Edinburgh will prefer the other!

 

 

 

June 1, 2018 Posted by | Transport | , , | 1 Comment

ScotRail Hires In Class 365s For Glasgow-Edinburgh Route

The title of this post, is the same as thsat of this article on Rail Magazine.

This is the first paragraph.

Three Class 365s have been leased by ScotRail, with more to follow. They will be used on an interim basis on the Edinburgh-Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk High route while windscreen modifications are made to Class 385s

The Class 365 trains may have been delivered in 1995, but they are no scrapyard specials.

I recently rode one to Cambridge and although some things are dated, the ride is good and they are 100 mph trains, just like the Class 385 trains.

Wikipedia and others reckon that as many as ten trains will go to Crossrail.

How Do The Trains Compare?

The trains are of different generations but how do they compare?

Train Length

On the major route, between Edinburgh and Glasgow, it is intended to run Class 385 trains as seven-car trains formed by a three-car Class 385/0 train

and a four-car Class 385/1 train. As the cars are twenty-three metres long, that gives a train length of 161 metres.

Each four-car Class 365 train is 81.9 metres long, so an eight-car unit would be  just under 164 metres.

I doubt that three metres would cause too many platform-length problems.

Capacity

The capacity of a three-car Class 385/0 is 206 seats, so I suspect a four-car Class 385/1 would seat around 275. This would give a total capacity for the seven-car train of 481 seats.

I can’t find the capacity of a Class 365 train, but it has 2 +2 seating and a fair sprinkling of tables, so I suspect the capacity of the two different formations is not that different.

Operating Speed

Both trains have a 100 mph operating speed.

Passenger Comfort

I suspect that the Class 385 trains will be more to the standard ciustomers expect, wth wi-fi and power sockets and probably more tables.

But the Class 365 trains are one of the better 100 mph long-distance commuter trains, rating above Thameslink’s new Class 700 trains and below the Class 387 train.

Conclusion

The Class 365 trains will make quality substitutes.

May 1, 2018 Posted by | Transport | , , , , | 1 Comment

ScotRail’s ‘385s’ Face Further Delay As New Windscreens To Be Fitted

The title of this post is the same as that of this article on Rail Magazine.

This is the opening paragraph.

Hitachi has confirmed to RAIL that new windscreens are to be fitted to ScotRail’s new Class 385s, which are already late entering traffic because of infrastructure problems.

It’s all a bit of a mess.

Hopefully, we’ll see the trains in service soon.

I do wonder, if the communication lines and manufacturing process are a bit long, between Japan and Newton Aycliffe

April 9, 2018 Posted by | Transport | , | Leave a comment